(00:02) we have been duped by feminism sexual Liberation and anti-depressants we have been told that we are powerful and free now as women but we feel tired wired and bitter we’re mostly eating right exercising and meditating wrangling to-do lists and arranging playdates and yet there’s a haunting hollowness beneath the huge complaint what if I told you that there is a huge Storehouse a reservoir of energy inside of you that has not been tapped that you could feel light and pulsing excited and alive in ways that a wellness lifestyle
(00:49) cannot deliver that you could trust yourself that the world could feel safe and that unexpected and expected Delights could start to illuminate your path no coach therapist doctor or Guru required just you learning to get real present and attentive with you I feel like I’m here to matchmake your inner parts for the greatest love affair ever written I want to help you learn first where you’re buying eggs from the hardware store which is the source of all pain I want to help you master entering through the upset which is the
(01:27) only spiritual practice You’ll Ever Need and to get real comfortable putting on your villain Crown which is in my opinion the key to True power and then you’ll attune to your inner yes so you can live the life defined by the specific pleasure of who you are I am so excited to announce my latest book called The reclaimed woman which is available for pre-order now so if you head to the link in show notes you can learn more about bonuses events and companion offerings and I cannot wait to see your gorgeous face on the
(02:07) [Music] path I’m Dr Kelly Brogan you may know me as a New York Times bestselling author of a book with an exploding pill on the cover Renegade psychiatrist pole dancer or honorary member of the Disinformation Dozen what can I say I’m a born provocator I’ve spent most of my recent life exposing deceptions connecting dots and discovering the secret places my inner victim is still waiting to be liberated and now I feel called to help you reclaim all of your parts your health your sexuality your power and
(02:44) your expression so that you can finally truly own yourself I want to ignite in you that inner knowing and the pulsing Vitality that lives beneath your disempowerment disconnection and resentment so that you can audaciously courageously and playfully alchemize your struggle into the specific pleasure of who you are this is Reclamation radio a soulfire production so I am so excited to be here with Sterna who I have been fangirling about for actually a number of years now as in my opinion the resource for what I
(03:25) call victimless parenting and this orientation towards the role of parenting which of course reverberates in our own lived adult experience in terms of resources and Paradigm and approach that is most resonant with my perspective on what it is to reclaim one’s sovereignty and I think that not a lot of folks in the truth thing world in the activism world in the you know even creating a better experience on this plain World talk about the role of the imprint of our emotionally insecure upbringings on our capacity to truly own
(04:06) ourselves in our adult experience and the way that STNA represents the opportunity I’ll call it that that we have to own ourselves and to experience others including our children and maybe especially our children as Sovereign beings is more than just like this token sort of like spiritual concept like she gets very practical about it and very real and her Instagram is like basically you know PhD level education in how to you know take on your proper compartment as a parent so I am so excited to have you here I’ve been wanting to talk to
(04:42) you for so long and I have like 12,000 questions I am going to keep my mouth you know running to a minimum so thank you for being here with me Sara thank you so much for your kind words really means a lot to me thank you so I want to really Dive Right In because I want to really showcase so much of the practical wisdom that you bring to bear in this Arena you know I was really turned on to a lot of the premise I think that we both value in this realm by Alfie con and his book unconditional parenting when he essentially talked about the
(05:19) shadow side of reward and praise and of course the enduring imprint of punishment and how punishment is a spectrum right from with and neglect all the way of course to Frank abuse so I want to really like start with the humble origins of some of the patterns that can really reverberate with so much pain and suffering in our adult lives and make us vulnerable to codependent and abusive and toxic relationships and Dynamics and patterns you know that our heart to break out of because you talk about some of these humble Origins and I
(05:57) think that many of us are like oh yeah I’m doing the best I can and you know I’m not hitting or screaming at my kids so I guess I’m doing better than my parents but you talk about things like you know giving like a lollipop to calm down a kid or you know getting a new toy when somebody when they when a child is like upset about their broken toy or otherwise like intervening in like sibling disputes or you know when a child isn’t sharing properly and these are so I have noted as I’ve become
(06:25) interested in this they’re so baked in to our reflection Ive unconscious impulses that I I think it takes herculian effort to bring awareness to this right like how are we just unconsciously paring that which we you know experienced as a kid and has been so normalized so I want to talk about both like the seemingly benign thing and then you talk about and you share about how we are really gaslit as children and what the impact of that is so I wonder if you could sort of just speak to you know some of normalized ways that we
(07:03) really you know Rob children of an experience of themselves such that they you know grow into adults who really don’t know who they are what they want or how to stand in their power so what are some of the sort of like top things that you witness yeah this is a really interesting topic that you’re bringing up right now because a lot of the things that we’ll do as parents sometimes will it comes from this first of all everything has good intentions right like even let’s say if a parent were to
(07:29) choose to punish their child normally it’s because they feel like we need to teach them better there’s always good intentions Behind these actions when it comes to punishments or threats and things like that I think many parents we can feel like okay I get why this is not okay like I understand right like it’s it just doesn’t feel good I’m telling my child that they’re punished they’re grounded they’re not going to get the you know to watch a movie tonight like it I I understand why this is harming
(07:54) our relationship and then when you get to the other side and you’re like okay how about rewards how about praising it’s like oh wait hold on you know these seem like it’s so nice what am I doing wrong here like I’m praising my child I’m rewarding their behaviors like how could this have a negative impact on my child it kind of like we really need to be open-minded to get to that space and feel like okay let me really look at what’s going on here and one thing that Alfie Kon says that is brilliant he
(08:24) explains how what you mentioned is that a punishment and a reward is the flip side of the same coin so for example let’s say you know we want to go out as a family and have ice cream okay and the house is a mess my kids plate everything is everywhere and I want the house to be clean as a parent so I’m G to come and say guys let’s clean up so that we can go have ice cream so right now I’m telling my kids you got to do this so that we can go out as a family and have ice cream now if one child says you know Mom I don’t want
(08:58) to clean up right now well we’re not going to go for ice cream so now the ice cream which was presented as a reward as something pleasant that we’re going to do as a family now I’ve decided to take it away from you because you’re not doing what I’m asking of you to do not even like let’s not even get into the fact that it’s food right that’s like a whole other topic the fact that I’m choosing food to be a reward but whatever we’re saying to our child here is you need to do this so that you can
(09:26) receive this from me and if you don’t do that now the child feels like it’s a punishment so we might feel like it’s a reward however on the other hand our child what they’re living is this feeling of like if I don’t do what my mother’s asking then I will not be going out with them for ice cream so it’s basically a form of manipulation right like that’s what we’re doing to our children so the advice I would give here is really to break apart what we’re asking of our child and each thing is
(09:58) something separate like if we want to offer something to our kids we can offer it just because we love them as they are guys we’re going out for ice cream let’s go have a good time and if it’s time for something to get tidied up or cleaned up then that’s another discussion separate than what we’re you know so really moving away from using the things that we are going to give our children in a way for them to comply with what we’re asking and when kids are very young if we think about it like they’re
(10:28) completely in inde dependent on us they can’t go out and buy their own ice cream they can’t call a friend and go out they can’t nothing like they’re totally dependent on us and so it’s so understandable that a young child will do what they’re being asked for whatever we’re offering you know what I mean because it’s like that’s their only way that they’re going to get it so there’s no choices that are being offered to them there is no choice they’re totally helpless dependent on us so that’s why
(10:55) also these things really Mark us as we get you know as we grow older because we’re so impressible like as children these things really really you know they Mark us like we’re in a situation where it’s like okay or I clean up or I can’t go out you know like it’s we’re really stuck and oftentimes we’ll do what our parents are asking us and we put aside our own needs and we put aside how we feel about things and we put aside all of those things so that we’re pleasing the others so that we’re given you know
(11:26) basic needs really if we think about it and we get inculturated around this Dynamic of responsibility for another’s experience right so that you talk a lot about entitlement and I’m very interested in that because of the way that it has manifested in the health and supposedly Public Health space right like as if we have responsibility for someone else’s Health that can be leveraged quite handily right by those in authoritarian power so this idea that as a child I am responsible for the emotional stability for you know the
(11:59) management of my parents experience the flip side of that as an adult can be right that a sense of entitlement right like you owe me you have my experience and we all you know can see the Shadow Dimensions of that so it’s not just that you’re a lifelong caretaker managing everybody around you so that you can feel safe because that’s what you learned as a kid it’s also then you can fall into that space of well everyone is respons everyone in my life is responsible for how I feel and they have
(12:26) to change in order for me to feel okay you know which is the Bedrock of a dependent Dynamic too so it’s just it’s like this these tentacles just grow out of that simple example yes yes and and even to take it up a notch is like when a parent comes and sees the mess and wants everything cleaned often times it’s even deeper than the mess it’s I need you guys to make me feel good in this house right now like clean this up I can’t be this way so it’s like the kids are now burdened with I need my
(12:56) mother to be happy right now and we have to put all this away make this space look good so she feels good so we’re making her feel a certain way and we’re responsible for that and then like you said of course they then transmit that in their relationship where if they’re sad then why isn’t someone trying to make them happy like you need to do what I’m telling you right now because you’re responsible for my happiness and so we transmit that you know vice versa like you’re saying yeah so this is such an
(13:23) important I mean this is like one of the most important things anyone could possibly hear pretty much ever so I just want to like put in neon lights what we’re about to talk about which is developing the capacity to feel feelings literally the physiologic psychological capacity to stay with in a feeling state is the essential aspect of sovereign relating right so how can you possibly not seek to control manipulate and otherwise abuse someone else if you cannot be with your own feeling state of course you’re
(13:59) going to need them to regulate you and what happens when the parent is the one needing that from the child that is the inversion right of the natural relationship so when a parent cannot be with their feeling State we might imagine in our Mind’s Eye like oh they’re screaming or you know in some sort of like tantrum as a parent right but it can look in these small ways right these teeny little ways where you end up trying to fix something or responding someone defensively before you take that little moment right to just sort of be with
(14:34) whatever is in the room in yourself and in your child so what is you know the way to enter into this very deep realm of like personal work you know maturational development as an adult how do we recognize when we are not you know in willingness to sit with our own experience like how can it look right when we are trying to discharge our own discomfort onto our kids often times parents will tell kids things like I’m G to be so upset if you do that right like I I’m so angry because you did this I’m
(15:11) really blaming our child for the way that we feel if you do that you know sometimes like people think it’s a joke to tell a toddler I’m gonna cry I’m gonna cry if you don’t do this like go to your bed or else I’m gonna cry like trying to show them that you can’t make me feel sad like if you make me feel sad then it’s bad then it’s not good and if we think about it like there are so many situations especially as children grow older where it’s important for them to say no to something even if the other
(15:38) person is upset like that’s okay right the other person’s upset we can have empathy for that and we can also stick to our boundaries but from a young age we might be teaching our children like I’m G to be so angry you know Daddy’s going to be upset if you do this Mommy’s going to be upset I can’t believe you did you hurt my feelings why are you doing this so all about like telling that child you’re responsible for the way that I’m feeling and this can feel very very heavy on a child already
(16:07) children already are born in order for them to survive childhood they are born with an egocentric stage of development so meaning their whole environment they believe is a reflection of them right so let’s say if I’m going to be upset with my child naturally they’re going to think something is wrong with me my mother’s upset with me why because a child needs to feel safe and so if they weren’t egocentric and think like something’s wrong with me then the other alternative to that is something’s wrong
(16:43) with my mother why is she so upset and if something’s wrong with my mother hold on I’m not safe here my mother has all of my needs uh oh I’m not safe but because a child is wired to survive they are in an egocentric stage of development so already naturally children taken their environments as a reflection of their own self so naturally if we get upset if we lose patience they will feel like it has to do with them and then when we add on top of that saying to them clearly like you’re making me upset that just
(17:16) accentuates already what they might be already feeling so it’s so important as parents to constantly tell our kids when we lose patience when we get upset which is going to happen we are human to mention to them this has nothing to do with you I’m working through things I’m feeling exhausted I haven’t eaten since the morning I’m GNA figure this out this has to do with me it has nothing to do with you you’re acting exactly as a child should be acting there’s nothing wrong with you I need to work through
(17:48) this and I’m going to figure this out and next time I’m going to work on being more patient with you not raising my voice and we share with them what we want to do in the future but when we so basically back to what you were saying like this responsibility of I’m responsible for how everybody feels not only is it natural for a child to feel that way on top of that it actually like imprints them for their whole life because this is the foundational years where they’re learning how do we have a
(18:17) loving relationship right how are we in a relationship what are the boundaries what are how do we navigate our each other’s emotions how do we navigate each other’s needs and wants and all of that so it really is like this blueprint for all of their relationships so it really has a long lasting effect you know when we handle these situations in these ways and another thing I just want to Circle back on because we gave the example when it came to reward but I also want to circle on to the punishment and
(18:44) punishments also include when I’m going to impose a consequence on a child right if I say like you’re not having your iPad for the rest of the day like that’s considered some people call it a consequence but it’s the same thing as a punishment what I want say here is if let’s say we tell a child right you didn’t do this you didn’t please me you didn’t do what I was asking you to do so now here’s your punishment or consequence however you want to call it that child then as we were saying with
(19:12) the rewards but this is with the punishments will also mirror that back in their relationships so if somebody pisses them off or doesn’t do something that pleases them and they’re unhappy about something then they feel like okay I need to indirectly cause pain to this person I need to punish them so maybe I’m going to give them the silent treatment maybe I’m going to call them names maybe I’m going to take something that I’ve given them and say I want that back and I feel like that’s what’s going
(19:39) to help the situation when really it doesn’t right it causes more disconnection in relationships and it causes more friction so the same way we come in and we like punish a child then they feel like they also have to do that to others you know so that’s also something that’s really important for parents to understand I think when it comes to punishments where many parents think that they’re teaching their kids to do better but really it’s teaching them to lack empathy towards others and to handle their own conflicts in harmful
(20:07) ways absolutely absolutely and the you know I talk a lot about the Reclamation of choice you know in that example you just described when we seek to balance the scales of our discomfort through you know imposing consequences that’s such a helpful term we don’t see that there are choices that we have right we have choices to orient towards the situation in many different ways and if we don’t like what’s happening we can exercise that power of choice but that gets buried under this victim Consciousness
(20:37) field when we imagine that somebody else owes us anything or that it’s important that we maintain a certain level of control over the situation and you know a lot of the normalized abuse that you expose you know whether it’s love bombing or gaslighting or ghosting and the ways that we do this as parents you know I remember like early in my daughter’s life saying things like you know when you calm down we’ll talk right so I was very committed to never yelling and screaming never of course being well
(21:09) not of course but never being physically abusive in any way like never something you could witness right but this this subtle sort of like control yourself and then I will okay interacting with you meanwhile not really investing in teaching her CU I didn’t know myself how to self soothe or how to self-regulate or how to even for a moment be with the experience of her own disregulation if you want to call it that right so something that I’m very interested in is how do we cultivate as parents this intention to allow our children to be in
(21:43) a different reality right because you know what’s referred to obviously in the field as enmeshment trauma is one of the most disabling experience as adults right when we feel that we you know need to merge with somebody else in order to feel secure and safe and then when there are differences or there’s a Divergent experience or perspective like we don’t know how to orient in that right so like how do we allow our children to have a different experience and I think and I know you do too to visit with their
(22:14) experience first right which means we have to be able to hold ours and I’ve spoken publicly about you know an experience that I’ve had and I continue to have with my daughters of asking them you know periodically you know is there anything that you need from me that you don’t feel I’m giving you and is there anything that’s still bothering you about me or an experience that you’ve had you know with me as your mama that feels like it still like upsets you when you think about it like can we talk
(22:42) about it and through those two questions like I have been exposed to you know things I would rather not hear right and so how can I like get into a you talk about like tell me more space like how do I get to this place of like visiting with their experience instead of needing them to support and soothe mine and two of the ways I see this coming up is in how parents relate to their children lying and then also just sort of the subtle defensiveness right so you know like if my daughter is like I don’t like sardines you know
(23:19) she’s declaring I do right so like she’s declaring she has a different experience in life one of the reflex of things I might do is like yeah but like have you ever put like oil and vinegar on them they’re so good right instead of being like oh really how like what about them don’t you like right so seems benign but it’s a I’ve noticed that there are so many ways where when I have a perspective that’s different than there’s about music about anything yeah I almost want to subtly manipulate them
(23:48) into seeing my perspective instead of prioritizing visiting with theirs you know I had I’ll just share briefly I was on my computer right and I have I use whatever it doesn’t matter messaging app let’s say and on my desktop and my daughter comes by and she’s looking and I have my eldest daughter pinned with a bunch of other people at the top of the messaging app because you can pin like a couple of people you want their notifications like first right and so my youngest daughter who I don’t really do
(24:18) a lot of like texting with was like hey how come I’m not pinned like up there right and instead of saying oh yeah you’re not pinned there what does that mean to you or like what are are you sad about that or does that upset you does it make you feel not important like how do you feel about that right tell me more I was like well you never text me that’s what I said instead right so that was because I felt her upset I didn’t want to hold my upset about her upset in my body and so instead I was Defensive needing to be
(24:57) right about why I was doing I was doing so these subtle ways of being defensive about our own reality instead of visiting with a child and then also how do we relate to when children lie to us you know because this is a topic that’s come up you know in co-parenting and you know this assumption that lying is bad and you should be punished for lying right and the idea of like well is it just upsetting for the parent like does it just feel bad for the parent to be deceived or and you know is is it important for us to look at like why
(25:31) might this be happening and why is it act probably totally normative and even healthy you know on the part of a child so I’d love to hear you know a little bit more about sharing realities okay first let’s go back to what you said first I love that example where you said calm down and then we’ll talk about it what happens there is that it’s so easy for us as parents to shut our child down instead of expanding right you stop feeling this way so that I don’t have to sit in this discomfort versus telling my
(26:02) child like expanding my own body and working on my own self and not shutting down my child so I feel like sometimes this is what’s happening between us and our child right like or we’re going to shut them down so that we can avoid expanding or we’re going to work on expanding and not shut them down so this actually ties back to what we were talking about before because what you’re describing is like even with the texting is you’re taking it personally and that’s what we’ve been doing it as
(26:28) children right as children we take our environment personally and then like I said before when our parent tells us and shows us that we’re responsible for how they’re feeling like that just gets accentuated like oh yeah I am responsible for how others feel so if somebody now my child is going to come to me and they’re not calm and they’re not happy and they’re crying I’m taking that personally so if my child’s coming and saying I’m not pinned how come hey wait we don’t text like I’m taking it
(26:55) personally their emotions are my responsibility and that’s what I’m showing my child right like why are you feeling this way look what I did you can’t feel this way look at my actions I’m responsible for how you’re feeling versus understanding that we each have our own experience and I think that that’s one of the most important parts about parenting is understanding that we have our experience and our kids have their own experience you know and an example that I like to give is for example me and you Kelly we were
(27:27) watching a movie and watching this movie and I’m laughing the entire movie I find it hilarious and you’re like next to me and you’re crying and I’m like oh my gosh Kelly you’re crying like this is hilarious this movie and we’re watching the same exact story however you have your own experiences that make you see through these lenses of yours that for you you’re feeling pain and for me I’m feeling like laughing it’s fun I love this movie and it’s the same story and so sometimes and like there’s no right
(27:57) or wrong you see what I mean like who’s right or wrong for laughing or crying like there is no right or wrong it’s each of us with our own experiences and that’s how it is with our children so sometimes we can have an experience and we experience it one way our child experiences another way and just understanding that whatever experiences they’re having is reflecting their own inner world so if our child is feeling hurt or sad or angry about something then that means within them there is something that hurts them and it doesn’t
(28:29) have to necessarily be about us Dr chaali has this quote I don’t know if I’m going to get it right but basically she says something like it’s really painful for us as parents to see our children in pain and what’s even more painful for a child is to see that their parents can’t see them experiencing pain like that’s even more painful than the actual pain they’re experiencing you know so I think it’s so important to kind of feel like there is we’re we’re not one with our child and when our
(28:58) child comes with pain it’s not a reflection of our parenting it’s not a reflection of who we are beliefs that we might have held on to as children right as children growing into adults now we might have these beliefs because our parents made us feel that way but we can move through that and we can be like you know reminding ourselves there’s also this famous Mantra that’s very I don’t know by who it is but it’s basically my child is having a hard time they’re not giving me a hard time you know that
(29:24) division between this is their experience it has nothing to do with me and when we show up in that way we can actually help our children and our children can feel safer coming to us because they know that we’re not going to get you know in meshed in their emotions we’re not going to also feel like how they’re feeling and now they lost their support because that’s what’s essentially happening right when your child comes and telling you hey I’m not pinned and then you’re like wait hold on
(29:49) what do you mean like you never T now it’s like okay you feel like how I’m feeling now so I kind of lost that supportive parent that I thought you know can work through this with me and can get curious with me and can say well how would you feel if you were pinned and do you feel I love you less because you’re not pinned you know and getting curious in that way so what happens is when we feel all those emotions coming in we lose the access to our logical part of our brain right so sometimes pausing on these moments I know it’s
(30:18) really hard to pause during these moments so something I like to tell parents and I’ll just give like a tip here which has really been transformative in my life for many other parents is setting an alarm on your cell phone whether it’s one alarm two alarms three alarms and whenever that Rings you’re just GNA you know check in with yourself and take a deep breath and pause just notice how you’re feeling so that you’re gaining more awareness so that when you’re on these moments and our child comes to us and tells us hey
(30:48) you didn’t do this we’re learning to gain more awareness we’re learning that okay our breath is right there we can take a deep breath we can pause we don’t have to answer our child right away if we feel like you know now is not the best time you know let’s talk about this soon and then you can process what’s happening take your time oftentimes we feel like things are an emergency like we have to answer right away we have to do this right away and that again comes from our childhood right because if we
(31:12) didn’t clean right away then our parents would be super upset with us and we would lose out on going out for ice cream or whatever that case was so we feel the sense of urgency when really now we can let go of that it’s okay like you know it’s not an emergency we can just sit there with their discomfort and if we don’t know what to say we can say let’s think this over together think it over there’s no urgency to to these moments you know I hope that answers your question the first part at least
(31:41) before we get into the lying totally absolutely yes take it away okay so lying is really interesting for parents listening I know you have older kids for parents listening to this that have children under the age of five under the age of five imagination is blurred with reality for a 5-year-old they’re so imaginative in their brain so I wouldn’t be too focused on the lying aspect if a child is you know coming to tell you the tree is yellow for example you know this happens like a young child like the tree
(32:11) is yellow and you’re like hey the tree is not yellow like why are they lying it could just be like this is their imagination so again back to that movie where I said this is your reality this is my reality we just say oh hey you see it yellow and I see it you know brown and green and leave it at that we don’t have to make children feel like they’re lying that’s really important because sometimes we can make them feel like they’re lying when really they’re not and then they feel like hey I guess I
(32:34) don’t say the truth or I guess you know there’s something wrong with me so we’ll pause here for a message from our sponsor my membership Community vital life project so if you want to hang with me ask me questions in live coaching get free access to my master classes curated content discounts and to the incredible humans that I attract my membership vital life project is where it’s at it’s the only membership of its kind and you’ll shed your struggle transform your victim story and level up your
(33:01) Reclamation game with others who get it join at the Lincoln show notes and at Kelly Brogan md.com another thing to keep in mind is let’s say your child is younger and also for teens so this applies for all kids I’m going to give an example for a younger child and then I’ll give an example for an older child so let’s say we have a younger child whatever age we ask them not to touch the blue paint okay and then we come down and we see there’s blue paint handprints everywhere and it we’re pretty sure our child touched this
(33:33) because there’s nobody else in the house so we know a th% it’s them and we come to them and we say hey did you touch the blue paint now the child is in a position to lie they either have to say yes or they either have to say no so we’ve placed them in this situation now children are wired to feel safe and to survive and they don’t want to upset us especially if we’ve you know shared experiences where we get upset when they don’t do what they’re being asked so they might say no in order to feel safe
(34:06) but we know for sure that they touched it they’re all full of blue paint like this is not so then we’re going to be like you’re lying why are you lying and then this creates even more disconnection and we’ve lost the opportunity to brainstorm whatever situation we’re faced with our Chong we’re stuck in this situation of like kind of like this battle where we’re telling our child you’re lying and they’re like no I’m not and this and now out a lot of disconnection and it’s not
(34:30) helpful in any way so whenever we’re in a situation where we know for certain our child has done something that we’ve asked them not to or we know for certain they’ve done something it’s best not even to ask like why even put them in that situation just go straight into what’s going on right like you come down and you see the blue paint everywhere so you go to your child and you say wow I see how hard that was for you not to touch this blue paint right that was really really hard for you you wanted to
(35:00) touch it so badly and now there’s blue paint everywhere wow what can we do about this do you want to help me clean up a child who is more relaxed and calm in their body will want to cooperate more and be like yeah I really wanted to touch it it was fun and they’ll help us clean it up and then we’ve learned from this experience that our child has a hard time and maybe we want to put the blue paint somewhere high up so that it’s not reachable for them and we learn through these experiences of what our
(35:27) child is capable of doing what our child isn’t capable of yet and needs our help through that so for example an older child do you want to give a real life example or should I make one up for a team I don’t I don’t have like a lived experience of it actually which is why I’m a believer that like there is a way to create the conditions especially for like an older kid where there is you know sort of amnesty for honesty kind of a thing you know there is a consequen less reality so I don’t have a lived
(35:55) example but let’s say like you know Tech right because a lot you mentioned food and I think that Tech and food are like two of the overcoupled entities when it comes to punishment and reward and the way that we control our children right so let’s say you know there is an agreement so I have an agreement with my kids that we put like you know our devices away at a certain time at night and so let’s say I have a suspicion that my daughter like got on her device after she went to bed and she’s saying no no I
(36:27) didn’t do that I’m saying why right okay so it’s it’s a tricky situation when it’s a suspicion versus when we’re a th% sure like if we’re a like we see the light on the device like it was just touched you know what I mean then we know for certain our child has touched that device so let’s start with for certain okay let’s say we’re sure our child touched the device now there is probably a need for why that child had to go on that device there was probably a really important reason why she felt
(36:59) she had to go on that device so we really want to come in with that right because we want our child to open up to us and to work through whatever you know boundaries we’ve set and now we see that are hard for them so kind of like hey I see the devices on you know did something come up that you needed to really talk to your friends about and then we can hear what they have to say right okay so now we hear their perspective and then we also have this boundary and so we can say like okay we we’ve settled that at this time there’s
(37:30) no more devices what do you think next time this happens like what if next time you the situation comes up again and you feel the need that you have to tell your friend something what do you think we should do and really especially when kids are older we don’t want to be the ones to be like hey next time this happens you have to come and tell me because then that’s very overpowering versus empowering that child with taking those decisions and oftentimes you know our children are wise enough to understand and to be like
(37:59) you know what Mom okay so next time this happens how about I do this right and they’ll come up with something and then you as their mother will be like hey you know what that works for me and if it doesn’t then you could say it doesn’t work for me because and then we can share why the reasons right and to really work through those things together notice how if I went to tell my child did you touch the device I’m putting them in a situation right there and then when I know the answer so why create that disconnection why go there
(38:31) when really it’s not about staying stuck on the issue and if they did this or not it’s really problem solving what’s going on and making it better for a future whenever these things come up now let’s say we’re hesitant we don’t know we have a suspicion that’s really tricky because I can’t tell my child like I noticed you went on the device like so if we have a suspicion maybe we can share something like hey you know I’m wondering is it hard for you not to use the device like
(38:59) after a time like is that hard for you you know sometimes me too it’s hard for me when I say to myself like that’s it I’m not on my cell phone past this hour and I put it away sometimes I find my body brings me back to my phone let me just check let me just this like do you feel that sometimes and then work through that right sometimes putting in a password or putting it in a a place where they don’t know where it is can help them and this is normal because it’s so hard we’re so addicted to our
(39:28) cell phones I know for myself also like I tell myself that’s it no more and then I’m like okay hold on let me go look but when I lock my phone or when I put it you know or tell my partner put this away I don’t want to know where it is then that helps me so sometimes if we feel like there’s a suspicion going on like maybe just sharing like is this a struggle do you think we need to help ourselves more through this like how what’s going on with you in regards to this boundary you know and really
(39:51) discussing it with them totally empathy yes so so simple so amazing I I want to speak relatedly about this concept of manners right because I think when we’re in the realm of obedience compliance and cooperation or Conformity to our expectations there are a lot of assumptions around well of course you tell your child to say tell her thank you you know or give your uncle hug goodbye or you know that’s rude don’t like don’t chew with your mouth open or whatever and I for whatever reason early on have been
(40:29) totally allergic to this and even you know in in the extended family if somebody would be like it’s nice to say thank you or it’s not you know don’t don’t throw your food there whatever I would like bristle you know like how dare you you know tell my child when to say Thank you so there must have been some sensibility that I had around being told to please you know another for the purposes of artifice is not really the vibe I was looking for but I am so interested now in how this Obsession that many parents have with so-called
(41:01) manners politeness and really just the concept of obedience is of course the foundation of an authoritarian totalitarian Dynamic with our you know rulers if you will and how essential that is that unconscious reflexes to establishing a social control grid and so this is where it starts and why would we what is the alternative right like do you just not care and you raise these like Savage beasts right is it really important to examine like why it matters like why is it important is it really just so that I look a certain way as
(41:40) like a mother if my child is nice and polite and says thank you or even I’m sorry right so like when we say ghost say you’re sorry and so what are the consequences in your opinion of imposing this framework of obedience and compliance and politeness on to our kids yeah well the the biggest consequence is we have children that are it’s a tough word what I’m going to say but kind of like a robot and that they’re not being authentic right we’re literally just telling them say this say this say that
(42:12) all of those things are empty words just so that we can feel good as parents right versus the strongest way to teach children to be polite and have manners and treat others with respect is by treating them that way what interesting is that when we tell a child go say sorry I can’t believe you did that we want to teach them to have empathy to others while lacking empathy towards them on these moments while telling them you go say sorry you go like that’s just going against what actually we’re trying
(42:42) to tell them so sometimes trying to make a child have manners we’re lacking manners towards them like oh go say thank you go like we’re we’re is that being like you know what I mean like that’s not having good manners like what’s going on here right and attempt to try to teach manners and teach respect and teach empathy we’re lacking all of those things to our child and so the opposite is being modeled to our child so it’s really important to actually think the question you just brought up like what’s going on here why
(43:13) do I feel the need to tell my child like that’s a really important question to ask ourselves as parents why do I feel the need to come and tell my child what to say how to be who to hug who to kiss who to do like why is it because I need to feel good and look good as a parent and then again that kind of brings that child to be like this extension of ours which they aren’t what happens is when a child is you know does something and they are lacking manners well I just want to go back a bit one of the most
(43:44) interesting things that I’ve noticed is as soon as a child starts to talk okay like think about it we have a little baby at home and now they’re starting to say like water this that like slowly they’re building up words and then suddenly they’re being told say pleasee say this say that like it’s just so much pressure like so much pressure on a child like I’m trying to learn Spanish right now and if somebody came and said say this word say like I would feel so overwhelmed like kids are literally just
(44:14) learning how to speak a language how to communicate and the pressure that can be felt on these moments is really unfair to put on kids like that’s just like a side note besides you know what’s going on in regards to telling them to please everybody around them so you brought up so many things do you want to break it down because you brought up the thank you the please the hugs and kisses the sorry do you want to like go through each of them I think they’re they’re so related right like they’re so related
(44:46) whenever we it’s like you’re saying whenever we feel that impulse to control I mean I call it like entering through the upset right like whenever you feel upset about someone else’s Behavior are you in that mirror right it’s exactly what you said like if I if I say to my daughter like why do you always feel like you have to be right about everything literally in that moment I am trying to be right about exactly right and you know for me the most helpful thing to bear in mind is exactly what you started to touch on which is I don’t
(45:17) know where I came across this early on thankfully was like can I speak to my children the way I would speak to a friend right and and what I tell my friend clean your plate before you go out into the other room like no of course I wouldn’t right and so so right it begins to sort of lift the veil I guess of like whatever this intoxication we have with overpowering these beings which of course is something that we learned right like how would we speak to and and with the manner saying it really is relevant right like I would never say
(45:50) to my friend like say thank you to him like don’t also what we’re showing our child is that we’re more concerned with how others feel than how they feel you know what I mean and we’re putting others placing them before how our child feels about whatever situation we’re in what I suggest in these moments whenever we feel there’s the need for something to be said whether it’s thank you whether it’s please whether it’s you know I’m so sorry you got hurt whether it’s you know
(46:22) a hug and a kiss right let’s say we feel that something you know needs to be done let’s say we can step in and do it right so let’s say our child hurts somebody and we see that our child needs help navigating that but then there’s a child that’s crying then we can go step in and model to our child how we go about someone who’s hurt and go to see them and say I’m so sorry you got hurt do you need anything can I give you a hug right and be there for that child and our child is watching our child might not do
(46:55) everything that we tell them to do but they’re clearly watching all of our actions and will most likely repeat the way we handle situations so focus on ourselves rather than trying to get our child to complete the image we want or the needs that we have so on these moments if we feel like thank you needs to be said and our child didn’t say thank you because they got distracted by what was given to them because it was so colorful and they’re already playing with it then we can say out loud thank you so much for thinking of my child and
(47:27) buying this for them look how happy they look they’re playing with it they love it thank you so much this means so much to us our child is hearing they’re going to pick up they’re going to pick up at the right time and it’s never on these moments that you know these are the teaching moments we can have discussions also at a later time right how do we go about when somebody gives us something that we like right what do we do but the most impactful way to teach children is by us treating them in that way right we
(47:56) say thank you when they do do something we appreciate the things that they’re doing we say you know an apology and repair when we mess up when we hurt them when we you know so stepping into the way we want them to be us being that way it’s so much easier as parents to demand things of our kids but are how what are we modeling right that’s really really where you know all the teaching takes place is our own being how we are with them and when we worry about you know other people that’s our worry we could
(48:28) say what we want to say why place that on our child you know what I mean yes yes and it’s it’s the difference between inspiring and like demanding right so it it’s also what is often reflexively engaged in the realm of like respect and gratitude right so even between ourselves and our child like this idea that our children owe us respect or owe us some sort of gratitude because we you know buy them food put a roof over their head and like do all these things for them like after all I’ve done for you
(49:02) kind of psychology right so can we should we you know demand that they respect and thank us for these things or is there you know a way that we might Inspire that and value it if it does come and otherwise recognize that they don’t actually owe that you know to us or anyone right what is it to live in a world where we actually don’t owe anyone any thing and we take total responsibility you know for our experience but I think it requires right that we start to even just this idea like that our kids don’t owe us anything
(49:37) right is is very difficult I’ve watched for many to sort of wrap their mind around right well of course they do you know after all I’ve done they do yeah I think that’s a lot of people that hold on to that it’s because their parents have made them feel that way and it can be so painful to realize like hey wait that was never any of my responsibility I didn’t owe anything to my parents so just facing that can be so painful so we want to just repeat that cycle and feel like my kids owe me so much because of
(50:07) all the things that I’m doing reality is is that our kids don’t owe us anything and we’re the ones that owe them we owe them we have the responsibility of providing them with all of their needs we have the responsibility to work on ourselves and show up as best as we can for our kids we have the responsibility to make them feel safe in our home to emotionally connect with them they don’t owe us anything and I think when we’re in this mindset something really interesting takes place is that you see
(50:36) children naturally love us unconditionally they do they love the parents unconditionally and we can either take advantage of this you know and use it in as like to manipulate them and all of that or not to manipulate them and to treat them with respect and the interesting part is that the less a child is forced the more they actually want to to they want to be close to their parents they want to be there for their parents they want to have a relationship and enjoy themselves with their parents how many adult children
(51:06) dread spending time with their parents dread it like they can’t handle it they feel annoyed by it they feel burdened by it because it kind of feels like you owe this to them but what if you didn’t have any of that right what if your parents knew that I’m the one that’s I’m The Giver you’re the receiver that’s just how it is you’re the child I’m the parent and then when children grow up interestingly they might want to hang out with us on their own right I think you know when when you talk about this
(51:36) idea of like the parent owing and the child not and that sort of that there are elements of the dynamic that could be I don’t know that they they’re sort of like separate energies that we bring that are also organizing to the dynamic right that there’s this polarity one of the Realms that I think is challenging is how do we know when we know better right so one of the things I have so I I live with you know my two daughters half of the time and I have committed to creating an environment so that they can
(52:11) have an experience that I didn’t have of knowing what it is that they want so honoring their desire and so we have a rule where none of us do anything that we don’t want to do period so if I don’t feel like going to you know an event that’s at their school or whatever I literally don’t go and if you know I planned a trip you know to go visit my one of my girlfriends a few hours North and on the night before this weekend trip my daughter was like you know mama I don’t want to go and I was like okay well am I
(52:41) going to leave her home am I going to have her with someone else and I was actually what was exposed was that the trip was like kind of poorly conceived like it was like I wanted to go hang out with my girlfriend and I was like dragging my kids along they didn’t want to be there you know so we didn’t go right so there’s it’s not always easy but what I find is that there’s actually like a lot of flow that emerges for the reasons you’re saying right where if everyone is free to actually like honor
(53:05) their impulses and desires then things kind of end up being more organically functional ironic however I check myself when I imagine that I might know better and and you know there might be a situation where I think you know my daughter should do something or like go to try that pottery class like you know you might be sort of like a little nervous about like meeting people but it’s going to be so worth it just do it right so this idea that we know better and you know I don’t actually I’m not a supporter of school so I’m not a
(53:36) Believer I myself like I’m in the unschooling camp in terms of my life philosophy however my children have chosen to go to school and you know the opposite is probably true in a lot of other households where you know the children don’t want to go to school and the parents know that it’s in their best interest to go and you know it’ll be worth it later so like are there ever any scenarios where we do know better and we should run counter to our children’s desire will orence yeah what you’re bringing up is
(54:07) sometimes very tricky to navigate and something really to think through there are so many situations where I feel like sometimes a parent might feel the need right for a child to do something that they don’t want to do that does happen and when that happens what we can always do is split up the emot from the actions so how a child is feeling their thoughts you know whatever is going on for them internally that we can validate and we can show our child that we’ve heard them we understand them and then the action
(54:42) part sometimes has no choice to get done right like I get that you don’t want to do all this and also like you know this is what we’re going to do at times that does take place the same way you know let’s say grocery shopping right i d rather not go grocery shopping I don’t want to do this and I am going to do my grocery shopping right now you know what I mean sometimes that happens just part of life that we don’t want to do something and we’re also going to do something the thing is though when a
(55:10) child tells us parents oh you know I don’t want to do this sometimes we can feel right away defensive oh my God no no no we’re doing this we’re so worried that because they feel a certain way that means that the action is going to be like they don’t want to but we can actually calm our nervous system like like this is the feelings and then the action is what we’re going to discuss about and both of these things can take place at once so I get you don’t want to do this I understand you and this is
(55:36) what we’re about to do is there any way I can help you through this because this is what we’re about to do so yes to answer your question yes I do feel that sometimes as parents you know sometimes a child needs a little push in a certain area to explore a certain way so basically yeah my answer is yes there are moments yeah yeah and that there’s a spectrum of like willingness right and there are ways that we can improve and amplify their willingness perhaps you know to exact by making it you know more desirable so I want to
(56:08) honor your time I have one final question that’s a little sort of meta which is when we talk about some situations where a parent might know better than the child and can sort of have an empathic dialogue with them about how they can get in touch with you know this deeper sense of you know their own empower even in the face of not wanting to engage necessarily right so that’s like a tricky territory even for us right like how do we know when to push ourselves and when to honor and meet ourselves where we are and right this
(56:39) idea of initiation to our adulthood is something I’ve been very interested in because culturally you know it’s it’s no longer a part of the fabric of our experience to initiate from adolescence to adulthood right for boys and for girls we’re not doing that so you just sort of coast along in your childlike psychology in your childlike methods of meeting needs and then you find yourself in an adult body in an adult lifestyle still living as that you know as that child so what do you think about the
(57:08) fact that you know there isn’t really a passing of the Baton from parent to child in the Greater Community where Elders are you know bearing witness to this expansion into adulthood through the dissolution of the the childlike Consciousness which often requires the sort of death right like a sort of way of being so that we can you know become who it is that we are destined to to experience ourselves as is that something you you sort of consider yes and I think a lot of us grow up when we realize that our parents have flaws that
(57:46) certain parts of our childhood were not okay and not to just brush it off and be like oh no I’m okay everything’s okay no that wasn’t okay right what happened to us was wasn’t okay the way we were treated wasn’t okay when we come to terms to that with that and that can be really hard it can be really hard because we can have this you know idealist image of our parents that we held on to from childhood but when we Face these things I feel like that’s one of those shells you know that keep us in
(58:13) that this childhood mindset that kind of breaks apart where hold on that wasn’t okay and I don’t want to repeat this and I’m okay facing I can love my parents and I can also be really upset with you know the fact that they did certain things to me and growing through that I think that would be like the first step of like this like what you said the childhood death right like that part of us that’s dying because as a child our parents are perfect because we needed to survive right but the minute we grow up
(58:44) and we say hey that’s far from perfect that wasn’t okay then then we’re breaking free then we’re moving forward you know does this does that answer your question totally and and I’m thinking about how that awareness can hide in phrase oh they did the best they could right and exactly so how do we hold the mixed object of like yes they did and also this occurred and it’s still occurring within me right so exactly making contact with that yeah so yeah I want to end on on something you and I
(59:11) talked about before I started recording which is just sort of How It’s there’s no statute of limitations on repair and on taking uh personal responsibility for the ways in which as parents we haven’t shown up when we we ourselves knew better and to really sort of like offer this compassionate space of ongoing learning and self-awareness that I know you hold you know in your community and in your teachings that this we’re doing this in real time you know we’re figuring this out as we go and and I
(59:40) think you would agree right like as we show up you know in this more conscious way with our kids we’re actually also healing ourselves and that part of ourselves within yes yes as you’re speaking I also want to add to something that you mentioned as part of your question where you started off as sometimes as parents we feel like we know better than our child so it’s not so much that we feel we know better than our child it’s that sometimes the the difference between you know being too overbearing and pushing a child too much
(1:00:08) to do something versus giving them that extra push they need that we feel they need is when our child wants to do something and then they’re like but I’m afraid but I don’t know if I’m going to be good I don’t know if this so they have the desire to do something and then there’s all these things that are walking them and that they’re sharing with us oh I don’t know I don’t know if I’m going to be good but I’m going to fall but I then we need to coach our children through it but if our child is
(1:00:34) telling us I don’t want to do this I hate this I don’t like this I don’t like the sports I don’t like that then we need to back off right they need to figure out the other things that feel good to them that resonate with them that they want to do so that’s where I feel the difference where like as a parent okay I’m G to help you through this like I get it that you’re afraid and we’re also going to do this together so again what I said about splitting the actions and the Motions but here what
(1:01:03) the differen is between me pushing my child to do something manipulating them or trying to you know being overbearing is the fact that the child has no desire right versus what I mentioned when they have the desire but then there’s so many things that are feel conflicting in them you know to to move forward so I think that’s yeah you don’t pit them against their desire right which is in my opinion the root of a lot of sexual shame actually is like when you’re ped against your own desire and your own
(1:01:32) life force energy and you’re encouraged to develop an adversarial relationship or a power over relationship to it you know so that’s that’s a very helpful clarification yeah cool thank you amazing well this has been I mean I just keep thinking of like the the Rolodex of questions I could have asked so I I hope that you know this was like a a Showcase of the way that you marry this deep wisdom with with very practical examples and practical approach and really like I said a compassionate framework for the
(1:02:02) fact that it’s like it’s kind of a tough love framework you know that you offer us as parents you know to get real about the ways in which we are perpetuating that which we you know seek to resolve in our our family lines and also you know understanding that or figuring it out because we we went through a lot of this dysfunctional parenting and insecure attachment experiences as as kids so I’m so you’re out there you’re spreading the good word and make sure that people know where to find you in in the show thank
(1:02:33) you thank you so much Kelly and I just want to Circle back to what you said it’s never too late to always repair we’re humans we’re gonna mess up and there’s always opportunity opportunity to repair opportunity to change it’s never too late and something that you mentioned in the beginning privately is that even as adults no matter our age we would feel so good if our parents came to us and said hey you know I want to hear how your experience was I’m so sorry you you experienced it that way no
(1:03:05) matter how old we are that will always feel good to us so no matter where we’re holding you know where we’re holding with our children and our relationship there’s always always space to repair and do better and shift and listen and yeah absolutely absolutely amazing thank you Kelly for having me thank you there
