(00:08) I’m Dr Kelly Brogan you may know me as the New York Times bestselling author of a book with an exploding pill on the cover Renegade psychiatrist P dancer or honorary member of the disinformation Dozen what can I say I’m a born provocator I’ve spent most of my recent life exposing deceptions connecting dots and discovering the secret places my or victim is still waiting to be liberated and now I feel called to help you reclaim all of your parts your health your sexuality your power and your expression so that you can finally truly
(00:43) own yourself I want to ignite in you that inner knowing and the pulsing Vitality that lives beneath your disempowerment disconnection and resentment so that you can audaciously courageously and playfully alchemize your struggle into the specific pleasure of Who You Are this is Reclamation radio hi and welcome back to Reclamation radio I am Dr Kelly Brogan and today I am in conversation with Eisen and I want to give a little context for why I invited him to come chat with me today which is that I have been as you all
(01:23) know in a bit of an investigative Journey trying to understand what is happening with men and women right now and also with manomen relating and I have been running my mouth about the scops of feminism and the new age and sexual Liberation and I have explored the ways that I as a woman have been masculinized and also the ways that I have seen men feminized and I could get my panties in a bunch about that however I do think that when I zoom out this is all by design you know and we are at this almost like neutralization phase
(02:05) that of course creates fertile soil for all sorts of you know gender related Antics and imagining that you know a woman’s biology is elective and the same is true for a man imagining that these things are irrelevant or even a burden right so a lot of the feminist programming is that our biology our periods our you know birth related responsibilities even are something to be disburdened of right so so I’ve been going down these rabbit holes and as I’ve been doing so I’ve been paying attention to other women who are coming
(02:39) to very similar conclusions about the bait and switch of feminism and I’ve also been observing men in the space I know that I am not alone I’ll reference another podcast guest I had Kimmy inch I don’t know if you know her Eisen but she’s a Dominatrix and I was at her Retreat recently and there was a moment where the men in the room you know got together in front of us and supported one dude who was kind of in it right and literally there was not a dry female eye in the room right so so we were all so moved why right like why is it so
(03:21) existentially grounding for us as women that men are doing the work it’s because and I want to get into this I believe you are here to contain us right and when you come together in Brotherhood you are better able to do that you know for everyone else for other men for children and for women and so I’ve been watching the men who are in this space of supporting other men and you are one of the only ones that I have noted speak such a similar language to me with regard to personal responsibility and victim Consciousness and really digging deeper
(03:58) into the overt agenda that sometimes us you know seemingly spiritual you know sort of teachers or whatever you want to call these self-proclaimed pundits that so many of us are like why we might be doing what we’re doing and what might be some of the ways that we are garnering attention and power that aren’t over right so I know that you are are sensitive to those things because I’ve watched the language that you use and the ways that you question a lot of the dominant narratives and so I was in a container recently run by you and your
(04:35) woman and you were talking about polarity and you were speaking primarily to women and I was just like you know louder for the ladies in the back you know just 100% on the same page about so much so I am really here to talk to you about what it’s like to be a man today and specifically you know why it is that you have maybe we can start with this like why it is that you have decided that gathering with other men is one of your most important priorities with all the things that you could do you know with your time like what do you see as
(05:14) the drive behind that and then we’ll sort of take it from there so welcome to chatting with me I’m super excited thank you thank you thank you Kelly I’m I’m so happy to be here with you and yeah with that introduction it’s like okay where do we where do we go you know the first thing that came to me when you said why do you feel it’s important there at the end why do you feel it’s important to do this work with men you know I’ve shared this with the men in Gatherings that I feel as though every Revolution that’s
(05:41) ever happened in our history happened with a group of men coming into Circle and being like something’s got to change here like we have to step forward in a way that is supportive to our women to our families to our community to the truth we feel in our hearts and you know probably all your listeners will resonate with this like there’s massive shifts happening within each and every one of us massive shifts happening in the collective and I kind of joke around with the guys saying that they’re going to be obsolete models if they don’t keep
(06:19) up with the women and I I do feel like the feminine like the our sisters our women have been leading this expansion in Consciousness and as with nature the men are rising to meet them there and so yeah it’s an honor to do this work to be aligned with so many brothers doing this work and we’re really rewriting the story of Brotherhood where we’re going from seeing other men as threats to our survival to being able to grow alongside other men and now be inspired by other men and stand up taller because I have all these men with
(06:57) me and instead of socializing with other brothers at the bar or with a video game headset on now it’s like we are aligned on this path of self-mastery we are calling ourselves forward we are keeping each other accountable and yeah this is it I have not kept it a secret that I am a huge Outlander fan you know the show and I remember when I was watching it I had this like visceral experience of what I believe is a fact fact is literally a biological fact that women need not just one man but men you know at our backs and that men need men at
(07:42) their backs right like there’s so many scenes where it requires like 10 12 dudes to resolve the issue right and to to come to service of one other man who is at the service of you know women and and children in the mix and to deny this fact and to to reflect on the atomization right so so the ways that we we women have been pit against each other and that men have been in you know heart disconnected you know competition but even that I feel like has fallen away because I I wonder if you would agree that like competition is is a
(08:17) healthy part of Brotherhood and an important part of establishing competency hierarchies and orienting you know around you know different kinds of men that you gather with and it has a different role than it does for women and if that were in place I imagine we would do less of the competing in a lot of depolarized relationships right there’s so much competition between the man and the woman and so it’s sort of restoring men with men women with women and recognizing you know the importance of that it feels essential and I imagine
(08:51) you would agree like when you gather is one of the goals to I maybe I should ask you what is the goal right is one of the goals to to have a safe space to feel is one of the goals to have healthy competition is it to understand yourself Through The Eyes of a trustworthy other like what is the impulse because I can only project and imagine what it what it might be but is that clear to you when you gather or you just know you need to yeah I mean it we gather and I the way I hold my space is is that each man is a
(09:27) leader and a king in his own right and it’s part of let’s say the mission of the spaces I hold to help recalibrate and recode that and to restore that template within him himself and so these men are called forward these men are called forward to lead to guide to teach it’s not just me standing in front of them teaching the whole time it’s like Bro you’ve been traveling lifetimes to get to this point lead me lead these men in this moment if you’re scared you’re scared if you’re nervous you’re nervous if you don’t know what to share share
(09:59) one of your stories like step forward and lead us and many men are still followers they’re followers to what society’s told them they’re still following their identities they’re still following their egos they’re still following their women’s desires of what she wants for them and so for them to step forward and feel it viscerally within their body what it feels like to lead a group of men and to see that reflection that like I can lead it shifts something for them at a cellular level the other thing that we do is we
(10:33) create this container and and I call it an arena to not only practice offering and sharing your gifts and and really tapping into your unique Magic and medicine but also to alchemize within the space and so the way I I draw it out is all right we are coming together to create this Collective container each man standing to create this circle within this circle is if you think of where our attention goes energy flows and so all of us are looking with into the center of the circle all this energy is focused here if we are gathering with
(11:11) the same intention to not only right restore this original architecture within our own being but to alchemize the densities that we’re holding now what we place within the center with every man here holding and witnessing that the alchemical process gets amp ified right and so this might not land well with some some listeners and that’s okay it is not a woman’s job to be her man’s space holder and I truly believe that she’s not built to hold what he’s carrying and so if this man wants to process his excuse my language his [ __ ]
(11:50) with his woman you’re almost forcing her to become and embody more of a masculine frame in order to hold your alchemical process for you and so she’s not built to hold generations and generations of you know attacks and captures and yeah this this whole like as you were saying it’s not even just the feminization of the masculine it’s it’s an attack on the masculine and so all that these men the depth of grief of their unworthiness and and the pain that they’re holding that has been avoided and numbed for years beyond
(12:33) their years to now come and and work to alchemize this it can’t be done at home it can’t be I mean we could hang up right now and I would be fulfilled because it’s so refreshing I really don’t talk to a lot of men these days it’s like in such a a chamber of female voices it’s really refreshing to to hear that reflected I know that I became aware of a program that I’ve probably been running since I was like six or seven that is so common which is I will take man right I will take your emotions on I will manage them and then I will
(13:15) have the opportunity to get what I want right so it’s a it’s a strategy and it leads to all sorts of inverse polarity right as as you know where I have as a woman become really good at staying calm in the Storm at problem solving at you know being in my executive functioning even as my limic system is like firing off and these masculine virtues have certainly served me right but in relationship they don’t right and you could argue that’s why I’m twice divorced right of course there are many other karmic reasons behind that
(13:54) but like the understanding that a man’s emotional alchemical process is his to manage however he sees fit requires that we suppress a lot of our fear-based reflexes right because it is not only so ingrained I think in so many of us to solve a man’s problems with him to feel intimacy to feel connection to even encourage him to emote right to cry to you know disburden himself how do you feel honey you know kind of a thing it’s so reflexive at this point but I think it it becomes even more buried that there is a a fear beneath that right so
(14:37) I have been very invested in exploring the fear I believe all women have of all men that’s biologically innate and how that manifests in relationship in activism right like you and I both talk about the role of finger pointing and blaming and vilification in activism right this is just such a common you know approach to World issues and you and I I believe both agree that it’s an inside job first right like resolving that war inside but when I came to understand my fear of men including those that I you know partner with is
(15:16) driving so much of my seeming desire to help them right it was exposed like to my awareness how much work it would be to do something different right and to instead of solving man’s problems holding space for him to understand what is my role when he is having challenges what is my role when he’s in the [ __ ] what is my role when you know he’s not necessarily you know this cool calm collected presence because he’s working something out so it even in the sort of like zoomed in maybe even there’s an example of what this would look like
(15:58) what do you see as the ideal way for in romantic relationship for a woman to interact with her man’s struggles especially if he hasn’t yet suppressed his own reflex of asking her for help Insight you know guidance Direction you know I’m a big supporter and cheerleader of Laura Doyle’s work I don’t know if you know it she wrote a book called The surrendered wife and you know she encourages she’s also been on the podcast she encourages women to never take take the bait when a man asks for advice on how to make decisions in his
(16:34) own life about his own life right so she says you know we should say whatever you think right and really reflect the regard and respect that says I know you’re going to figure this [ __ ] out and I absolutely trust you to do it so like when you’re talking about these deep struggles and maybe even overwhelm that men deal with what you imagine is right comportment you know for a woman to take towards that in relationship such a interesting question maybe I want to I want to take one step back because you mentioned something
(17:12) that I feel is really important to touch on which is the underlying fear and the reason why I want to bring that up is I want to highlight the fact that why I am suggesting that men seek each other for their processing is because our woman by her nature amplifies what we see within her in the same way that when you plant your seed within your woman she doesn’t return back to you seeds she returns back to you a bloodline and so similarly if I’m sitting with my wife at night and we hear a noise that like a window breaks
(17:50) in the house if she senses my fear she will be even more scared she’s not going to match my level of fear and so we need to have this awareness that it’s one thing to rest your head in her peace and then it’s another thing to drown her in your tears or to yeah drown her in your own storm and so notice for the men notice when you’re coming to your woman seeking for your own mother to soothe you and be aware of what it is that you’re seeking from her are you seeking to extract from her are you scared in this moment and it may be it may be just
(18:34) a matter of communicating to her that you’re going through a process you’re you’re clearing things up you’re you’re in it right now and so if I feel distant this is why there’s a fine line between seeing your woman as your Oracle and treating her as your therapist her mommy yeah coach Mommy and so I think like you said to get back to what you were asking be his cheerleader and not his coach know that he is in the game cheer him on breathe life into him speak life into him help him Connect into his inner knowing by turning him
(19:13) back inward because the more we play into this Dynamic where you’re helping to fix him and you’re giving him constantly advice and you’re telling him to come and like what do you feel tell me how you feel like you’re trying to like pull something out of him not only are you feeding into potentially codependent Dynamics but you have to ask yourself what is it that you yourself are seeking out of this fixing or out of this consultation or what is it because as as you said there’s this potential to extract your own sense of worthiness
(19:48) from validation yeah validation and worthiness from helping fix the broken man who can’t feel I would argue that that is the childhood fantasy right and and that is the the sort of Neon Lights of the father wound right it’s like I will squeeze Love From The Impossible Stone and and when I do it will make me you know feel safe in the world and worthy and validated and that as we all know is the Bedrock of a trauma Bond and these kinds of codependent as you referenced dynamics that don’t actually result and intimacy and that’s where I
(20:31) see so much of the competitive Dynamic I referenced in you know my friends marriages and in you know my own experience and why if you don’t understand these principles of victim Consciousness you can literally live in a hellscape and g guess like yourself that you’re just working on your difficult relationship for decades because you’re in a zero sum game right and you are trying to be right relative to your man and you want him to appreciate the advice and the guidance and the insights that you bring to the
(21:03) table and then you don’t know why you constantly feel anxiously attached I mean this is such a common common Dynamic I mean I was talking to a girlfriend of mine the other day encouraging her to and this is a Laura Doyle thing I’ve learned to apologize right to her man for being disrespectful and because of correcting him in front of me right and I was like I know this sounds crazy but I think it’s possible like that felt bad and it might be worth offering an apology you know for being disrespectful and she’s like Kelly I
(21:36) have been right for 22 years do you know what you’re asking me to do right when you’re asking me to apologize she’s joking you know but this is sort of where we’ve derived a sense of safety as women when what we really want is the safety that comes from a man who knows what the [ __ ] he’s doing right a man who is actually leading and guiding a man whose system is actually regulated and not the one who needs our our counsel right and right right whether that’s because we grew up with with dads who needed us to emotionally handle them
(22:10) manage them regulate them or who were unattuned to our inner experience you know or what it what it is this is a very common Dynamic so what do you see as being like some of the common patterns in relationship that are almost normalized and maybe this is a two-part question because I know you call I call it like the SC up of the new age and I’ve seen you refer to it as like pop spirituality and I know you have also noted that there are ways in which you know Trends in so-called spirituality are affecting men affecting manom
(22:50) relating I would of course argue they’re also affecting women and I wonder what you’ve seen in terms of patterns that are almost normalized between men and women right now that are like a deadend you know street because I see so much in the you know sort of sacred Union you know spiritual Dynamics polarity spaces a lot of masturbatory processing in service of one of the people feeling right about how wronged they are you know and it’s cloaked in like you know soft tones and you can speak like IMO type stuff right like you speak and I’ll
(23:25) reflect to you what I’ve heard and then I’ll speak and you know what I am certainly more interested in supporting the cultivation of is these really organized Lanes of energetics right where a woman is in her Lane and a man is in his Lane and I’m not sure there’s much processing at all that needs to happen you know when those energies are properly segregated and so I think it can be one of the traps of a lot of this this sort of like new age spirituality but what do you see in terms of patterns that are keeping men and women stuck in
(23:57) Conflict stuck in you know asexual buddy Dynamics stuck in you know sort of like premarital you know long Windows of relating that aren’t necessarily leading to Commitment what do you see in your circles my God there’s there’s so much and where to begin the first thing that came to me is this fixation this new age fixation on polarity teachings and one thing I’ve really tapped into is the inversions in the polarity teachings and not only the inversions in it but it’s almost a bastardization of it and so you’ve taken these multi-dimensional
(24:41) beings who are both masculine and feminine we are all of it we are the entire Cosmos in this drop and now we are almost there’s this almost return back to what is familiar Veil with spiritual guard and so we see certain people telling women to be more soft and surrender but not discussing what the surrender process actually is what she is surrendering to she’s not surrendering to this man she’s surrendering to God she’s surrendering to the universe working through her life she’s surrendering to Perfection and so
(25:23) until she can anchor that in and feel that deeply within her body within her own life You Can’t Jump the line and tell her to surrender to this man it makes no sense what they’re discussing is submission submission happens with the Mind submission is forced and so there’s there’s this distinction that needs to be made that I feel is lost in polarity teachings and the other thing too is the inversion in polarity teachings that I feel play into codependent Dynamics and I want to challenge some things you know even the
(25:57) notion of the masculine being the container I feel is a potential inversion and when we look at our direct experience of reality even the way we create life it is the feminine that is the container it is the masculine that is the penetrative force and so how can he be the penetrative force and the container at the same time and so unpack that a little bit more for me because I I love that word and I actually got it from the BDSM world and this concept of like you know a river needs Banks you know the little flicker needs the glass
(26:33) container kind of a thing but I obviously see what you’re saying in terms of penetrative versus like holding right and some of this is just poetry right like some of it is just is just language and in fact you know one of my teachers Omar Pani has indirectly chastised me for using the term masculine as a woman because he thinks it’s problematic you know that we’re using these terms like you’re talking about your feminine I’m talking about my masculine when I have not I am not a man I don’t know I have no idea what it is
(27:07) to run a man’s energy through this vessel okay I only know just like I don’t know what it is to be you know a black woman or you know a Native America I just only know this right this is my credential experience and he says when I use that term it’s like a total fiction and I I could see that right like I can see there’s something to it so maybe on some level we’re talking about energetic signatures right and you know yinyang or you know if we want to borrow from Young you know the Ana anus these injects but
(27:43) I I’d love to hear more about about you’re challenging this because it is very pervasive I have aligned with that languaging when I use it PS just so that you can weave this into your response yeah I think of it as a neurophysiologic thing right so if we were in a room together or maybe across the pixels I don’t know how well it translates actually but if we were in a room together and your system is well regulated like literally your your pulse was steady right your coherence your energetic coherence was on fleek you
(28:19) would be able to offer that to anyone and everyone else in the room you could do it through a gaze you could do it through a hand on a shoulder sometimes you could even just do it through your presence and I have felt this I believe most people know what I’m talking about and we also know what it’s like to be around a man who is very skittery you know very sort of like frenetic energy and you know it’s it’s destabilizing and as an activist recovering I have watched men red-faced [ __ ] panties in a bunch screaming at the podium and I I feel
(29:00) like the world is crumbling right if these are the leaders that that my team is putting up on stage like we have problems and I call it like the hysterical man archetype like I I don’t feel safe in the world with hysterical men right and that doesn’t mean that men can’t be hysterical if they want to I’m just talking about the effect it has on my system for sure right so that’s what I think of as containment it is something that is conferred and I believe we we do this for ourselves you know this is what I I teach is is I call
(29:32) it self- husbanding but you know self-containment like how do you offer that to yourself like how do you create the conditions for your system to Exhale literally but also like you know practically like you know when you’re going to a party when does it start when does it end how are you getting there are you going to have the water you need like these kinds of basic you know biological support needs so I I’d love to hear more about like why you think that is an inverted like this polarity teaching thing might have some like
(29:58) inverted Concepts in it because that’s very expensive for me to you sort of like think more outside the box about it yeah and this when I first brought this forward it definitely frizzled some feathers so to speak and so for me I’m a student of the elements and when you talk about the water and the riverbank you’re talking about the water and the Earth which are both feminine elements in their unique Expressions now when you’re saying a man who’s frazzled for me that is the air element that is the mind that is a and and and
(30:34) for you you you will feel safe with a man who is not a slave to his mind’s need for stimulation he is not enslaved by the turmoil of the stories within his own psyche he’s not attached to who he believes he is so when you look at when we’re on the waters you’re in a canoe you’re in a boat the reason why the waters would become chaotic is not because it’s in the water’s nature to be chaotic it’s because the wind and the element of the mental body makes the surface of the water chaotic but if we dive to the depths of the emotional body
(31:16) it is very still and so although there is this fluid nature to the structure of the water when we look at a molecular level the chaos in the gaseous elements are very chaotic and so similarly with the fire element the fire of spirit you know we see fighting as a masculine energetic but dancing and fighting are very similar right so the way I’m experiencing my reality all my truth comes from the way I experience my reality from nature my vessel my container is made of earth and water what is animating this container is the
(32:00) spirit of my fire and my thoughts the air element and so from my direct experience my container is feminine when I am creating life sex the masculine is not the container when we are having sex it is the feminine that is the container the masculine that moving energetic penetrative force is within the container of the feminine when we connect into yin and yang properties the feminine energetic is thought to be the seed and the masculine energetic is thought to be the life that penetrates the seed and Sprouts out so this notion that the masculine is
(32:50) the container may just be rooted in this codependency of the man being what holds me where we can play differently is that it’s not that he is containing her but he is supporting her through filling up to her limits so that there’s nowhere for her to collapse into so she feels fully supported through this fullness penetration that now it’s safe to continue expanding and because she is magnetic and he is electric as she expands he meets her with that expansion and so we also see this with the expansion of consciousness why are there
(33:32) so many women in the and more women in the spiritual communities and all this stuff it’s because the feminine is leading the expansion in Consciousness and the masculine will rise to meet her there so I learn through the elements I learned through my direct experience and how everything is speaking to me the way nature is speaking to me the way my life is speaking to me it’s that the Vine is actually the container and we notice this as the most precious thing in existence life itself is housed in the container of the womb right and she is
(34:11) the Stillness that slow nurturing safety while the masculine might be running around to provide and and bring resources and protect her and make sure she’s taking care of and make her the meals and this and make sure so it’s like is what are we actually playing with now to even throw more maybe confusion in the mix nothing is just one or the other and so although we said okay the water element is feminine in its expression but when there’s a tsunami crashing to the shores it’s expressing primarily masculine in that
(34:46) moment and similarly when that when the drop of water is dropping on this rock and it’s patient and persistent and it’s eroding The Rock that’s still more of a masculine expression in my opinion so now what we have to go back to your question in terms of what I’ve noticed in the realm of relationship kind of the things that are stifling relationships now is not only the inversion of polarity where you expect a man to be this mountain not you somebody may expect a man to be this mountainous expression and it’s being
(35:19) identified as a masculine expression right when we can play with it a little differently and I like what you said it’s not about him being a mountain it’s more about him having more control over his energy over his mind anchoring in that energy so the inversion is one thing I see the other thing I see is that as we clear out our unworthiness programming polarity teachings have come in to almost reaffirm the unworthiness within the union and so people are looking at their spouse and saying if only she was more
(35:55) feminine if only she was more soft and surrendered and feminine then I would be able to lead and we would be able to get along or if only he was more in his masculine and he was more of a leader and he was more like this then I would relax in my feminine and live happily ever after and it’s like there that’s the victim Consciousness I’m talking about right because it’s the blaming and finger pointing and right insisting that something be different than it actually is yeah yeah so it’s almost playing into a bit of a a Disney narrative for me
(36:27) where it’s like if this person was more of X Y and Z then I would be able to become more of a man then I would feel more masculine in my frame and I think it comes back to look it comes back to Inner Union it comes back to balance of your own masculine feminine energies it comes back to your own sense of Harmony and self- responsibility for your experience of reality it comes back to real depth of intimacy through communic a beyond the surface level Waters of the stories we are telling ourselves to dive deep
(37:03) into the depths of the ocean into our own emotional bodies and retrieve these intricate like structures that have been placed there long ago to really like show each other like this is actually what’s really hurting me this is what’s really bothering me it’s not you it’s not what you said it’s what has been there for many years come hold your breath and let me take you down there so we can see what’s there and now we’re starting to relate differently to each other so that for me when you said what is the yeah that’s kind of what came
(37:36) through what does that balance look like for you because obviously I’ve been studying what that balance looks like for for me as a woman but when you say that inner Union what does that like very practically look like like on a Wednesday for you would you say oh my god um what does that very practically look like for me connecting to the Divine mother within and so not seeking for that mother with with my wife allowing her to be where she’s at who she’s who she is in that moment what she’s going through in that moment not
(38:12) seeking anything from her nurturing myself caring for myself being in a surrendered state within myself and so many men are out here demanding their woman be surrendered and soft and this but they have yet to learn how to surrender surender to God and so living in that receptivity and also it’s important to for a man to be magnetic too this isn’t just for women to be magnetic like everything that we attract in our life is from our own magnetism and so that balance of being receptive being surrendered being soft with myself
(38:51) but also taking action in my life being structured in my day being disciplined as well which is interesting too now that we’re just kind of like throwing things around like do you believe discipline is more of a masculine expression or a feminine expression well because I I similarly believe in the cultivation of like I call it maturation right like the maturation of these energies right so I have cultivated a number of masculine competencies like goal Direction problem solving Integrity of word you know the
(39:26) Will based execution of tasks for example and I’ve done that from a wound right so I’ve done that almost emulating and this is where the feminism piece comes in hardcore but emulating that which I am fundamentally afraid of right and threatened by and feel persecuted by and violated by and betrayed by and abandoned by and all the things right however the maturation of those energies is in service of as you referenc nurture self nurturance right it’s in service of my dominant Essence right and that’s why I call it self- husbanding because as I
(40:05) mature those what I do call masculine virtues I am better able to allow right my creative inspiration my sensuality my felt intuition to have its rightful place and and again I would use the word containment and I completely understand what you’re saying it’s a really helpful Nuance for me to like expand my perspective on it so yes I think of discipline as being a masculine virtue however Marian Woodman who is a youngi psychoanalyst she talks about how discipline etymologically actually means that something like the
(40:41) Gaze of the teacher who loves you you know because it has disciple as as one of its you know Roots right and that’s been my experience of of discipline it’s actually it can be a self- flula practice right or it can be a self-d devotional practice and so like does that really have you know the yin or Yang signature I don’t know but I like I like personally and this is what I teach the Imagining the eyes of my husband my king my father whatever you want to pick one upon me right like the Gaze upon me that I like Blossom under right so I
(41:19) like to think of discipline as being that that gaze of the teacher who loves me I don’t know for me that’s a very resonant like meaning and I am a hugely disciplined person right and I’ve had to actually mature that how to look at the ways that I’ve become rigid and dogmatic in my routines in my sort of rejection of I mean it could be like gluten literally like in my rejection of things that I have decided should not enter the palace you know kind of a thing and at a certain point I’ve I’ve been invited to soften that and to become more nuanced
(41:53) in my responsiveness to reality rather than coming with this rule set you know which is it serves its purpose for a phase and that’s why so much of this is is so nuanced you know like I wonder and and maybe you want to say something about discipline and then maybe you can tell me like a bit about like if you like what do you see as as the role energetically of the let’s just talk about wife and husband yeah do you think there are roles you know because I would assume that you would but maybe there is more fluidity there that you think would
(42:26) be helpful to like embraced so yeah yeah I love that what you spoke about discipline and and I think we are getting to a point where it’s less about a list of dos and don’ts and more so about placing certain let’s say checkpoints within our day in order for rhythm and flow to occur within our lives and I like how you said there’s like this balanced expression of it which is like this nourishing nurturing like this is what is best for me and I’m taking care of my myself and then there’s this imbalanced expression of
(43:00) like the drill sergeant and there’s no room for feeling where the energy wants to go in that day in terms of roles in my marriage I’d say yes and no I do like to be in service to my wife and to the union and so yes when we’re in the airport I will carry the bags I like to drive I’ll pay for dinners I’ll you know like there is a sense of sh rry and traditional let’s say even though that word might be kind of charged however you know for those who don’t know like my wife is an empress she has her own Empire and she’s building and creating
(43:42) and she has a certain mission that she wants to fulfill and I support her as well in that and so as well she very much leads in our Union like I I say the man doesn’t lead the woman doesn’t lead God leads and so the importance of both parties remaining super connected super tuned in and open and trusting that God is working through that other person right and so knowing that I know I’m going on here a little bit but knowing that that like I’ve at a soul level chosen this woman to be my greatest Ally in this game and so also
(44:25) my mind cannot comprehend what she really is and so to say this is my role this is your role does have a purpose and serves a purpose to make the daytoday easier but if we are trying to contain what we are within this Union I feel like it limits our expression and our experience of each other but yes like I do all the cooking she does all the cleaning up afterwards that’s just how it works I love to cook I love to nourish my woman with my cooking and I hate clean leaning up after and she she loves to do it and she sees it as a
(45:00) meditation and so that works like that and so we do have specific roles in that way but I wouldn’t necessarily see them as a box that’s been predetermined for us if that makes sense yeah I think the complexity that has been introduced again just to reference the yeah Pandora’s box that is feminism you know the the complexity that’s been introduced with a woman who now has the opportunity to choose whether to work whether to cultivate an Empire whether to be financially independent or not and otherwise potentially traditional I use
(45:40) that phrase too for lack of a better one you know sex Dynamic it’s something we’re here to talk about right like this is like literally right now we are are figuring this out because I’m exposed to you know certainly a cohort of women who are recognizing that being the primary provider or egalitarian providers 50% you know 50% bread winner kind of a thing lands us in a Escape like a lifescape that ultimately feels constraining and unfulfilling yeah right so I you know I’ve been Breadwinner I am you know doing all the things that
(46:18) feminism said I could do right and I am I’m reporting From The Trenches that it ain’t all that right it it’s there’s there’s something missing and in the capacity for a man woman Dynamic to become a free energy technology right we must in my opinion organize ourselves into domains and so that’s why I’m asking when you know when I use the word role that might even be the wrong word because the the domains are more energetic and I think you know I’ve only interested myself in the work that women can do because I I am very committed to
(46:57) the resolution of victim Consciousness and that’s why I’ve been attracted to people like Laura Doyle who shouldn’t talk on these terms but who’s who literally say you’ve got problems in your marriage your man doesn’t have to do a damn thing he doesn’t have to go do plant medicine doesn’t have to get a therapist he doesn’t have to read this [ __ ] book and he certainly doesn’t have to go to couples therapy with you let him alone okay and you focus on you [ __ ] like that’s literally what I hear her say and it’s so refreshing because
(47:26) oh man the woman you know addressing these fear-based reflexes right of like you know talking [ __ ] about her man in in private to her girlfriends and then disrespecting him in public and then you know imagining that she knows better how he should be doing his life and constantly like henpecking you know all of these reflexes can be soothed right like like we she calls it putting on duct tape all right like we can basically shut the [ __ ] up and actually then have the experience that we want right so it’s it’s in service of both but it’s in
(48:06) service primarily of meeting our own desires to to be in Dynamic with a man we respect admire and Trust And if you chose this man to marry at least at some point you might have felt those things right and if you didn’t then you know that that was problematic from the get because you know Omar P says to me all the time he’s like women need to choose a man they respect not love you know not think is [ __ ] hot like a man that they respect and when you have that you can have this Dynamic that is transcendent right and with that in
(48:49) place we do you know we do different kinds of of work I just like I could hear these men cheering behind me as you saying that well that’s why people call me a pikme girl but really my intention is is not and but plus I’m not even on the market my intention is is not to blow smoke up men’s ass it’s actually you know to restore the rightful power to women that we’ve always had yeah and and I think the important thing is like if you’re having conversations with women you’re making it about them and not and when I’m having conversations with men
(49:22) I’m not making it about their women I’m making it about them and ultimately that is where our power lies it’s not about men who come to me and say my woman emasculates me my answer is no woman can emasculate you you’ve emasculated Yourself by seeking your manhood in her and so if you’re like we are so powerful that we are creating our own experience of the other and so yes to the women there like you must respect this man to be able to build with this man and you offer him that respect like Take the Lead and we see that the importance of doing
(50:00) so and we’re not victims to our relationships like we chose into these relationships and I think part of the modern times deception is that I can go find somebody else or the grass is greener or I’m comparing constantly and yeah I I mean what you said about polarity teaching I’m a huge huge David data fan I’ve been following him for over a decade and he’s really imprinted on my Consciousness when it come like even Beyond like relational matters like really spiritually and and the the shadow of an amazing teacher like him
(50:38) and so many who have followed in his footsteps is exactly what you articulated right which it’s like you know women listen to him or again insert polarity teacher here you know they listen and they say my man is nothing like this you know my man needs to be more like this but then we also feel super deficient right so we feel indicted and also simultaneously disappointed right and resentful and the sort of potentially The Missing Link is just like very rudimentary simple behavioral changes you can make in the next five minutes
(51:15) right so like not even going deep into the energetic practices and philosophy and metaphysics that I think do underpin a lot of what we’re restoring and reclaiming here even in this conversation but just the simple [ __ ] and that’s why I like you know work like Laura Doyles that doesn’t even pretend to be polarity work doesn’t pretend to be spiritual work it’s very pragmatic right and you know like I I was talking to a girlfriend the other day who’s having this kind of a struggle like her man is not masculine enough and she’s
(51:43) constantly having to reorganize him and and tell him he’s not planning it right and why isn’t he showing up in this way and why can’t he just hold space for her and blah blah blah all that and that’s what I said what if for one month in your mind all you said was yes sir literally like that’s your Mantra you can say it out loud that might be even better right but what if you just said that and you shut the [ __ ] up okay and you stopped when He suggests something you stopped being like yeah but how about like a little different how about
(52:14) maybe this and you just get a real feeling of what it’s like for him to be the primary decision maker right and and then you can feel do I trust this man because you can’t even really get a sense for that if there’s two people driving the car right so you said you know you like to drive and I think that’s like I’ve come to believe that’s the biggest the most authentic barometer right for any woman is like if you can get in the car with a man doesn’t have to be your man like literally an Uber driver and you can not
(52:49) say anything like actually like not like oh but I think what if we turn there or like are you sure you’re going the right way or like God I’m like really late can you be a little faster or you’re driving too fast or whatever you can just not say anything you have a little experience of what it is not only to trust that man but also to trust God right also to trust that you’re never going to be put in a situation that isn’t designed for you and how about you just like take a seat right like take a seat and just go
(53:19) along for the ride and I have great insight into why we don’t do that as women right I get it and we’re finally in position where we can you know learn to confer safety to our own systems and then begin to to assess situations with more sober eyes put ourselves in situations where we are actually safe and we can chill we can chill out of it right so I want to ask you and maybe you know this will be one of our last questions because I want to respect your time but I want to ask you about the subject of initiation because I’ve come
(53:56) to believe that men require initiation right and and maybe I’ve just been influenced by you know people who’ have spoken on the subject previously that like you become a man right and and you do so through initiation that prior to the hegemony of American culture you know or lack thereof was a part of any traditional Society right that that there was something built in for a man to confront his childhood fears of death and capacity and to blow through them with a a more expanded self-concept that he takes into the world right he grabs his
(54:35) balls and his spine and he is now a man right it just happens one week you know you could argue that this is what child birth is for for women but I’m not sure that the journeys are the same in fact I’m fairly convinced they’re not and so I wonder what you think because you know when I think about what we can do as women to support like healthy masculinity in the world healthy men in the world yeah I think of a couple of things right like I think of supporting mothers who have sons so that they don’t energetically castrate those boys and
(55:09) require that their healthy aggression be hidden in a catacomb and require that those boys manage their emotional stability and require that they essentially become parentified spouses right so so that’s an arena we can work on I think about courtship and I’ve become rather conservative in my beliefs about sex before marriage and these kinds of things like gatekeeping sexuality as women and I think about like the ways in which we can encourage men to actualize before they have access you know in their own life path right before they
(55:45) have access to to the prize let’s say and you know I think about all the relational ways we’ve been talking about we have so much power to really bring out that experience of man that we yearn for and long for I think if I could generalize right but I don’t know what we can do about the fact that men are not being initiated and I wonder what you think right because maybe that’s even part of what you achieve in these gatherings that you put together it’s like you know these micro initiations but you know if you were to
(56:20) have a son let’s say like how would you look at that trajectory you know of his life at what point is he like now a man in in modern culture it’s just sort of like oh College you know like what what is the thing that confers that you know identity even to a teenage boy or to a young boy do you feel like you experienced it do you think maybe it’s not as relevant as I’m making it sound no it’s super relevant and I first want to just acknowledge what you brought in in terms of how women can play a role in this inspiration and the last thing you said
(56:55) in terms of like helping to bring it out of him I do feel that every woman is kind of got that ability to be the Snake Charmer and play that right tune to bring the snake out of the box and only a man’s will and willingness and Free Will which I refer to as the three Wills of spirit a man’s free will his willpower and his willingness these are the foundational elements for his own step forward into initiation and for me it was seeking these things out for myself like initiating myself into greater awareness my path happened to take the the look of
(57:42) plant medicine at the time when I first really woke up sitting with iasa and like trusting and going into ceremony and purging my guts out you know ceremony after ceremony and and really clearing and purifying and facing the depths of my being and and recoding a lot of these impurities within my psyche and so my initiation happened to look a certain way the other part that because the the society we live in right now this modern society and I don’t want to pick it apart because we chose to be here now at this time but the conditions
(58:15) we are faced with right now are one of supreme comfort and convenience and unless a man gets off his ass gets tired of marinating in his own [ __ ] and seeks to initiate himself he’s going to remain sitting on the couch complacent stagnant shut off depleted and numb to his own existence and so to the men listening the import to all two of them listening all two of you men listening there’s gonna be more now that I’m here there’s gonna be go ahead yeah seek out that initiation push yourself see what you’re [ __ ] made out of man go stop at
(58:57) nothing to face yourself in the arena of life face your fears what are you being called to what what scares you go whatever that may be whether that’s going to train right because like a man who trains in martial arts a man who trains like in in the gym he carries a different energy about him and so push yourself Connect into your body okay it’s a simple simple recipe I think and we’ll get back to the initiation but there’s a simple recipe for men like eat clean work out get in the out out in the sun drink a lot of water sleep well and
(59:37) let everything take care of the rest okay I didn’t become a man I would say until I was willing to take Supreme ownership of my kingdom and so until a man is ready to take complete ownership of his inner Kingdom and outer Kingdom knowing that everything revolves around him then he stays uninitiated so seek out other men if you seek out who inspires you don’t be afraid to ask your woman who she admires what men she admires and see what that evokes within you and go go in that direction I love that I want to leave
(1:00:21) the ladies the single ladies with some Pearls of Wisdom from you before we we stop if you have another few minutes because I listened to one of your I don’t know if you would call it a master class but I would on the subject of like calling in a partner right so I spent some time over the past couple of years in that energy before I decided that that is actually not my priority at the moment and that my role as mother is for the next five years so I’ll be extending my sexless window for another five years almost rounding out a decade no so I
(1:01:01) have a lot of insight into what it feels like to not trust God right to not trust your process to imagine that there is a grasping a doing a self-working a you know bettering that is required for you to attract this partner and this experience of Union that so many of us know in our heart is possible and you you spoke to women about I felt it like relaxing you know that grip and I wonder if there are any you know sort of like high high level tips that you can offer to women who are interested in taking responsibility so
(1:01:43) that would be probably everybody listening who are interested in taking responsibility who recognize that we have immense power and who also are struggling with holding a yearning right holding a longing and capacitating and unfulfilled desire for partnership and for the kind of Union that they imagine is is possible what would you say I think the second thing you mentioned about what the women can help do to initiate men is understated and the importance of treating yourself as sacred and you becoming sacred how you
(1:02:20) value yourself is going to be how another man values you and if you are coming from a place of seeking then you’re going to step into a certain Dynamic from a place of lack and so Focus not on finding a man focus on finding this Inner Harmony within yourself focus on becoming this magnetic Divine radiant specimen being multi-dimensional being that you are I would say as I’m speaking to the women as though they are my sisters do not pursue a man allow space for a man to court you allow space for him to show his words to match his actions okay
(1:03:07) allow the longing to exist allow that to be okay and I feel as though that you know there’s a probable future version of yourself that is in that Union that you feel so strongly that you desire and so your longing may just be the connection to that future you that is there right now and so allow it to just be what is you know there’s I think it’s like a it’s like a Sufi poet wrote about maybe it was even roomie wrote about like allow your thirst to be what leads you to the water instead of just searching for the water and so find home
(1:03:44) in that longing but also remember that this man will be brought to you depending on where you are walking and so this is the main thing I’ll I’ll leave you with the man you align to will be dependent on where you are walking at that time okay and so if you are walking a place of seeking your other half you will find half a man if you are walking on a place of of wholeness you will find a whole man and so stay on your path stay within yourself stay trusting and rever yourself and allow everything to take its shape around you and remain in
(1:04:18) truth do not abandon yourself to anything stay in that truth and allow the external world to shape around that truth that you know deep in your heart I love it amen amen that’s very powerful and I so enjoyed this conversation I really do feel like we are you know we’re weaving the fabric as we are laying on it and we’re at this this you know semi Awkward Moment of self-consciousness and self-awareness around the fact that we are indeed you know creating this this new reality this new world this new Earth we’re aware of it that we’re doing
(1:05:01) it you know like as it’s happening and so these kinds of conversations feel important to even smoke out some of the blind spots and expand some of the vernacular and I know myself I can get in a lot of you know rhetorical ruts you know speaking so much to so many folks about the same stuff so this has been really expansive and refreshing and I’d love for you to share with folks e in about what is alive for you these days like teaching wise and where people can find you and you know what you’re offering if they are interested in going
(1:05:36) going deeper okay so I’ll share it with you first Shanti and I are putting on a sovereignty Summit and that’s going to be at Lionsgate portal 88 89 and 810 and we are going to bring the most potent online Summit around all things sovereignty the first day is going to be about expansion in Consciousness reclaiming your sovereignty as it pertains to your Consciousness the next day is going to be all about the physical vessel and then the third day is going to be about sovereignty as it pertains to navigating this game so
(1:06:12) finances crypto taxation free birthing new technologies everything so we’re bringing we’re calling in The Avengers we’re putting this together for our community you know we’ve done a lot in the personal development space and we want provide people with these tangible tools to reclaim their Birthright of sovereignty in this game and so that is something that we are currently crafting behind the scenes amazing very on brand that’s amazing well thank you so so so much thank you so much Kelly I appreciate it
