(00:00) we’re also told that Earth has multiple wobbles and that Earth revolves around the Sun actually in a state of freef fall at over 66,000 mph and that Earth is moving around the Milky Way galaxy at over 500,000 M hour and it’s expanding outward in this expanding universe expanding into who knows what but it’s happening at over 1 million milph so everyone listening to this or watching this right now is moving in all of those ways and yet we feel nothing hi and welcome back to Reclamation radio I am Dr Kelly Brogan
(00:32) and today’s guest Mark Gober is an esteemed colleague a brilliant author we’re going to be focusing on his seventh book today which is called an end to the upside down Cosmos and here are some of the tidbits you will be enjoying number one why the shape of the earth matters and what the journey from Globe believer to Globe skeptic can look like two the many reasons that we do not actually live on a spinning globe and number three rethinking the Big Bang solar system where we live and how it feels to shift out of the indoctrination
(01:17) and programming on this subject it’s a little spicy and I aim to deliver you in about an hour the nuts and bolts of inquiry into this essential topic welcome Mark to the show Kelly thank you so much for having me so you are a return guest and today I want to focus on your latest Opus which is called an end to the upside down Cosmos so for those listening who don’t know you have birthed and I would bet lots of money that you will continue to do so a series uh that you know follows this this name and I was uh so delighted to learn that
(02:06) you were going to focus your expert lens on this subject on the subject of cosmology and I want to start out by talking a little bit about your journey into this intellectual terrain because your books cover like a huge spectrum of topics that all have in common this thread of deep inquiry of sovereignty and sourcing if I could say a connection with you know a a kind of Consciousness that restores meaning right to this Human Experience and this subject for many is a blind spot right in fact I’m sure you’ve heard and maybe even you
(02:51) were this person I was this person I still remember being on an interview with David avocado wolf and this a couple years ago and and he started talking about how in Hawaii you can see like one Island from another Island that you shouldn’t be able to see because of the curvature supposed curvature of the earth and that you know debunks the globe and I remember sitting there thinking who cares like why are we talking about this this is so ridiculous and irrelevant I remember having that feeling of almost like a kind of
(03:25) projected embarrassment interestingly and of course I fell down the rabbit hole myself as I’ve I’ve shared in 2020 because I had a friend who really she was like an angel and so many she like dropped into my life and dropped out and like popped out and she came in around the time I was crystallizing my understanding of what was going on of course in in 2020 having been one of you know one of us who was preparing for what seemed to uh finally materialize for many many years and you know we were talking about the George Floyd event and
(04:05) she was sending me all of these handles on Instagram that had like you know there’s no curve bro whatever like the handles were all these like flat earth related handles and I was like why Esther why are you sending me these like Flat Earth accounts this is so bizarre like why are they all seemingly promoting this perspective on cosmology and again I just didn’t see the relevance of it and remember she said to me and I have an interview with her in my uh sovereignty series but remember she said to me are you ready to go down
(04:34) the biggest rabbit hole there is and you know 10,000 hours later of research I mean I just just hundreds of hours I just consumed but it took me the better part of a year year and a half to really make sense out of it and as I was sharing this with my friends I said you know it’s the same exact thing as medicine as education as Finance it has the same structure The Awakening feels similarly uh delightful right so I I always like to say that you know if it’s if it doesn’t feel good it’s not the truth right like you’re not
(05:14) there yet and there’s something that just feels so orienting to this subject matter so when our mutual friend Melly reached out to me and she said you know I’m talking to Mark and he’s he’s asking a bit about a cosmology and you know I don’t remember exactly you can tell me how it came up but I keep this like little document you know with some like links and some of the ways that I have thought about this subject and deconstructed so many aspects of what I formerly believed and all of the sort of like spin-off
(05:48) subjects like you know Evolution and dinosaurs and satellites and and I I shared it with you it was literally what a month and a half I mean it was such a short period of time that I learned you had produced this book okay we’re going to talk about this book and this conversation is going to be less of me doing this talking and yapping the whole time and more of you pretty much teaching because I want this interview to stand on its own as an invitation to anybody who feels that little tickle inside that wants
(06:24) to just have a One-Stop shop wants to say okay tell me what the deal is right and meanwhile you know most of us spend many many hundreds of hours if not thousands exploring this this subject because it just keeps going and keeps going keeps going but you produced this book you channeled it I can’t explain it any other way because it was it was such a short period of time that you went from and I’m going to ask you to to tell your side of the story that you went from being I would say like a conventional thinker no offense in the
(06:54) realm of cosmology and such a radical thinker in all of these other domains okay so I would call that a blind spot we all have them I’m sure I have many uh still remaining and that you came to the same conclusions that I’ve come to after you know was probably like again a year or two of of research and speaking to others and really digging into this topic and I consider this book an end to the upside down Cosmos the definitive resource right now that is available on the subject and it is so welcome it is so something to celebrate
(07:31) because I’m a big believer that handing somebody a book that acts as a portal to another way of thinking to more expanded reality is one of the greatest uh gifts that we can provide each other um as humans so I would love Mark to to hear a bit about your journey into this uh World from no pun intended from skeptic to you know I would say a more a more free ER and and really you know what were some of the the sacred cows that had to die right because I didn’t interact with you directly about it and I don’t know how hysterical you were
(08:13) about the prospect of thinking differently but in my experience and I don’t know why this seems to be in some way a sex matter but in my experience men can really get their panties in a bunch about this subject and I don’t know what it is I have my theories about father woundology and all the things but it’s it can really set people off especially in our realm of like you know a truthers and and people who I don’t know I guess we can play a bit like know at all right so I wonder if there was like a lot of emotional resistance what
(08:43) came up and sort of how you walked your way into the conviction that it was time to write a book about cosmology well thank you for that preface Kelly let me start with my journey like you were suggesting and then maybe we can move into the details of what was swaying me but let me take you way back because this is my seventh book and so I’ve looked at many paradigms and and had to rethink life in so many different ways over the past number of years but I was like you said a very conventional thinker I went to Princeton for
(09:11) undergrad I worked in Investment Banking in New York during the financial crisis I was at UBS one of the big uh investment Banks and um then I worked in Silicon Valley for about 10 years advising technology focused companies and while I was working in Silicon Valley I started listening to podcasts and at the time I would have called myself maybe an atheist agnostic I wasn’t even looking at the nature of reality I thought life was random and meaningless I was totally there and then I heard podcasts that made me question
(09:38) that U basically podcasts on the nature of Consciousness and whether Consciousness is something that comes out of our brain or whether our brain is like an antenna receiver or some kind of an interface for a Consciousness that’s well beyond the body and if the latter is true then that means there might be a soul and maybe our Consciousness continues when the body dies this for me was the biggest worldview shift of all because going from when you die that’s the end to wait maybe when you die there’s more and maybe there was
(10:06) something before your life and there’s all the stuff that we have amnesia to whoa I have to rethink all of existence so that was my my first book in end to upside down thinking was published in 2018 after I just became obsessed with this topic of Consciousness and then I decided to leave my firm actually right before everything happens with covid and I wrote a second book and end to upside down living which is about basically how you think about living life with this new perspective on consciousness interestingly on the cover of that book
(10:31) is a globe even though I wasn’t talking about cosmology it was just I don’t know it was just like kind of the symbol of interconnectivity so I wasn’t trying to make a point about it it was just not a paradigm I had explored at the time and since then since having left my job I’ve written on a number of topics so voluntarism in ENT to upside down Liberty we spoke about that previously in to upside down contact on the UFO contact phenomenon and just contact in a metaphysical sense too like in a near-death experience or psychedelics
(10:57) and then I wrote about the great reset and then I wrot wrot about an end upside down medicine which challenged germ Theory and while the other books relate to cosmology in some ways in terms of the Paradigm shifting elements I think the the medical topics are very similar to the cosmology topics in terms of the logical fallacies that we see which I’ll get into but what I noticed after writing the book on medicine and let me take a few steps back because I had heard people talk about whether or not viruses exist starting in early 2020 and
(11:25) at the time I wasn’t looking at government conspiracies or anything I wasn’t close to it I just had never looked at this sort of thing and I remember hearing people talk about well yeah SARS Cove 2 doesn’t even exist as a virus I was like well that’s interesting but they’re talking really technical stuff about methodologies and I I would need a lot of time to evaluate what they’re saying and it wasn’t until 2023 that I actually looked into it and I realized there was a lot of important information regarding just basically the
(11:49) history of medicine that many people weren’t talking about and methodological problems and there was this group of people who went really deep and they made great points and I decided okay okay I’m going to write a book about this and I found that many of those same people were asking the same questions about cosmology basically taking the same logical problems that we see in medicine Bas basically where people jump to a conclusion about why something happens and they get stuck in that model they were saying the same thing’s true
(12:15) about cosmology so I had at the back of my mind okay these are people I respect and they’re looking at cosmology I haven’t looked into it I’m not closed to it but I haven’t looked into it I mean I had heard Dave Weiss who’s one of probably the the biggest voices talk about Flat Earth probably 2021 2022 I heard him on a podcast and I said this is really interesting but I would need a lot of time to explore this so I just got sidetracked with other things the medicine book came out in end of 2023 and I usually take a few months break
(12:42) after a book and I went to a conference called Confluence in Texas run by Alex Z and his colleagues and actually right before Confluence this is April of 2024 Steve Young’s book came out a Fool’s wisdom he’s a theoretical physics PhD and everyone was talking about it so I got it on Kindle and I was looking at it what he was saying about Earth and so I was interested because he as a theoretical physics PhD said look I’m not sure with with 100% certainty what Earth is but I know with 100% certainty it’s not a spinning globe and I said
(13:14) okay what’s going on here because now I have a lot of people from who seem pretty credible who spend time on this and they’re unable to basically validate the spinning globe model so I’m sitting at Confluence and the the topic of cosmology kept coming up everywhere and the last day of the conference I I remember sitting with Melly and also Ur aimos who hosts co-hosts here for the truth and we’re having this conversation about cosmology because it was coming up everywhere and the conversation was sort of like why does this really matter like
(13:40) why are people so up in arms maybe maybe it’s not a spinning glow but like I still have to go to work and and take care of things so I was I guess my interest had been peaked at the time and then Melly started to nudge me and she sent me the resources that you had put together and I went through those in I don’t know like two days or something plus or minus I just spent all day like on 2X speed listening to everything that was there so that was an amazing platform that you provided Kelly thank you for that and you’re in the
(14:05) acknowledgements of my book because it was really really helpful then it gave me a lay of the land of like who’s saying what what are B the basic categories that I need to look into and then I do what I always tend to do when I’m get interested in something is that I I buy every book I can find on the topic I just go on Amazon order everything and I find every lecture I can and listen to as much as I can basically and then I I get to a point where I feel like I’ve heard maybe not everything but the the general
(14:28) categories are all there and the rest is history I guess I become obsessed and I can’t stop until it’s done so the book did happen quickly this is what’s happened with all of them because I go really deep and then when I when I write it actually doesn’t take me that long because I have all the resources there like to me the writing is the actual typing of the book is the last step the writing is in the research and I’m at the point now where there are there are too many holes in the the mainstream cosmology for me to be able to believe
(14:54) it and when I say cosmology I think that’s an important word because people often fixate on on just the shapee of the earth and they get stuck in this flat versus sphere or flat versus globe and often those who are critiquing the flat idea don’t even know what they’re positing they don’t even know what the POS what the position is and there’s so much more to it because it’s about also Earth’s motion and we get into things like gravity and Earth’s magnetic field and a big bang and what is the cosmos in totality the shape of Earth is important
(15:24) but it’s part of a bigger picture and the picture is one that I realized I never had asked from the beginning of my exploration I was always asking who are we why are we here why does life matter why am I going through all these struggles and ups and downs but I never asked what is here I didn’t ask that because I had this Big Bang model and when I went to Princeton I took a course in astrophysics and another one in physics and they taught us all about these things that I just took as fact we’re in this like massive expanding
(15:47) Universe in this massive vacuum and I never really thought to question the basics of that until exploring this book it’s so funny I’m taken back to the fact that at MIT I was at MIT for undergrad and and my boyfriend for most of the years of my undergrad was a literal rocket scientist it’s like the ways the tentacles of the assumptions that we make about this place that we live in and all of the the plausible deniability right so like he was a rocket I knew a rocket scientist right like obviously he was working on Rockets or whatever he
(16:24) was doing so they must be real right like all of the the leaps in logic that we make with without actually being aware that we’re making them are I think what insulate people who are confronted by the cognitive dissonance you’re describing right like you’re you’re looking at these colleagues that you we have who have you know come to this you know you are now in a a group it’s I wouldn’t say it’s small it’s a it’s a group of colleagues and I mean they’re arguably the the most freethinking you know brilliant sources
(16:58) of reality testing and exploration that I have in this world like are all in this group right and we all have come to this conclusion That’s the basis of the group and you know you could have said okay well I have these colleagues they seem to be applying a similar lens to this subject of cosmology that none of us are actually expert in but somehow they’re interested in it other than Steve of course and yet I have all of these pre-existing assumptions right I have all of these reasons to just like dig my heels in bit more and you know reject
(17:32) that whole path and you didn’t do that you resolved the dissonance by going in as a novice and I think that that is you have a lot of experience with that right you have experience with going from let’s say expert to novice expert to novice expert to no like climbing the pole sliding down climbing the pole and sliding down for many of us our sense of self the self-concept is too threatened and I actually have connected that to a lot of Father woundology where you need to assert dominance uh or Mastery prematurely honestly and you don’t have
(18:06) the what I would refer to as a masculine capacity to fail well uh that allows you to just start at the beginning again and to find your spine in the process so you were able to do that and to really look at at so many of these assumptions um but you referen when you were talking about Steve Young’s work you reference you know we could call it the replacement fallacy whatever we want to call it this idea that if you’re going to to you know challenge a sacred cow if you’re going to confront uh one of these assumptions if you’re going to
(18:39) disrupt The Familiar terrain of a belief system then you have to have a good replacement right if you if you’re saying that we are not spinning around the Sun then how do you explain you know the the seasons or the the are d rhythms how do you explain this and you know Dave does I think uh take that bait very well where he has you know an entire app devoted to how do you explain in a lot of the the theories of of replacement but that’s not where I think you and I find the most fulfillment in the inquiry space uh because gatekeeping falsehoods
(19:21) gatekeeping disempowering myths and really you know holding as sacred the beliefs that keep us connected to our our Humanity I think is we share that interest so I want to focus on that today and I want to really give you the mic so that you can share with us some of the the most powerfully um influential things that you encountered ideas that you encountered facts that you explored that helped you to really loosen the grip that is society supported on so many of these assumptions and uh you mentioned things
(20:03) like gravity and the big bang and of course every time you you question one of these things it it ripples forward right it has all these little babies of inquiry that get born once you you Dain to to question one of these pillars of of assumption and you you just resist the temptation to need a replacement immediately right and you just sit in the the not knowing uh which I think is a rather mature compartment towards you know reality and and the big questions that we we have so I’d love for you to share some of the
(20:39) highlights for the book it goes without saying that this is highly referenced and meticulously resourced text it’s actually like quite concise you know that this could have been you a 600 page book and you did what I think a master does which is you distilled it into something accessible when you could have Flur you know made it into this huge flourish that I think a lot of us do when we’re starting out with something right like it’s almost like that Shakespeare and protesting too much kind of a thing and he really narrowed it
(21:10) down in such a powerful impactful way and so that’s why I thought if we give kind of the highlights of it then people can know that they can turn to the book find the references explore on their own go deeper in any one of these areas but I love for this to be sort of a start here around the the kind of question that you did for days on end in the period after you allowed for the the cognitive dissonance to be resolved in in this way well I will start with with something that I don’t hear people start with typically in the field of cosmology
(21:44) and actually the book starts with this which is dark matter and dark energy interestingly I started my first book and ENT upside down thinking talking about dark matter and dark energy I said look 96% of the universe according to mainstream physicists is this mysterious stuff dark matter Dark Energy we only know what 4% of the universe is there’s these big Mysteries what I didn’t realize was the history behind this and I I’ll give dark matter as the example which is that in 1933 an astronomer named Fritz Wiki was looking at this
(22:10) cluster of galaxies and basically the way the galaxies were moving did not match the predictions of mainstream physics more specifically it didn’t match the predictions of Einstein’s Gravity the general theory of relativity which basically replaced Newton’s gravity and it wasn’t just that the math was off by a little bit it was off by like the amount of missing Mass was massive there was under 1% of the mass that should have been there if Einstein’s gravity were to be true so instead of saying well maybe we need to
(22:42) question gravity and Einstein’s relativity we discovered dark matter that was the conclusion Dark Matter was discovered it was basically invented out of thin air because obviously we can’t question Einstein’s gravity so there must be this missing matter that we don’t fully understand so that’s problematic on the surface but I want to read you just a few lines from an astrophysics Professor which he States very well in plain language this is an ii.
(23:09) TV article his name is Pavo Kupa an astrophysics professor at the University of bond 2022 article he says this the current cosmological model only works by postulating the existence of Dark Matter a substance that has never been detected but that is supposed to constitute approximately 25% of all the universe the other big portion is the dark energy but a simple test he says suggests that dark matter does not in fact exist if it did we would expect lighter galaxies orbiting heavier ones to be slowed down by Dark Matter particles but we detect
(23:42) no such slowdown a host of other observational tests support the conclusion dark matter is not there the implications of this are nothing short of a revision of Einstein’s theory of gravitation so that’s a pretty big deal right there because I actually want to take you through the chain of events just the very basics of it because we started with Newton’s gravity and this was the idea that an apple falls to the ground because mass is attracting Mass so the Earth the mass of Earth is bigger than the mass of the Apple so the Apple
(24:13) falls down the problem is that Newton’s theory of gravity is unable to predict certain things like Mercury’s motion around the Sun in the sky that’s a big hole so if you have a model that can’t predict something then it’s not comprehensive and that’s been acknowledged so Einstein’s general theory of relativity came around and that’s supposed to fill in some of the holes but apparently Einstein’s theory of relativity is not working either because we have to plug in this dark matter so we end up with a cosmological
(24:39) house of cards which is a very big thing because gravity is supposed to explain motion and especially the motion of celestial bodies and here basically something’s not working and that means we we’ have to reconsider all of physics and all of cosmology and to me that opens the door then for everything to be reconsidered and if you bring this on top of what we already know and I remember this from studying at Princeton there’s no unifying Theory of physics because the two leading theories are relativity Theory from Einstein and
(25:07) quantum mechanics but they cannot be combined properly basically the explod the equations explode and I quote mishio Kaku in my book who’s a mainstream physicist saying this is one of the biggest mismatches in history and he talks about like how big the mismatches so basically on the surface those who want to propagate the mainstream Narrative of cosmology I think they’re in big trouble because we know it’s extremely flawed and because it’s so flawed we don’t have a unifying Theory gravity’s got problems Einstein’s
(25:34) relativity has problems and we’re plugging in this dark matter and dark energy that might not even exist it’s fair game to question things and I’ll just pause there you talk about how there is a tendency to ignore these I’ll make up a word these disproofs right to ignore uh what is clearly either unprovable or disproven and there is a tendency to tolerate you know all of this this dissonance right so of course I come at it from the psycho emotional perspective because it’s otherwise intellectually and academically inexplicable but there
(26:11) is a consensus right that we we find in medicine you you you drew the same parallel of course that led me across this this bridge and the consensus that is operating in the cosmological realm recruits several different but familiar facets right from the academics and the sort of siloed experts in in uh physics all the way to you know and perhaps we’ll touch on this to uh um operations like NASA and um the relationship to the media so this concept I find you know now of course thanks to to Steve and you and others like I can’t possibly use the
(26:49) new age language around Quantum this Quantum that and right and all of the I mean the dark energy concept and dark matter and the invisibility of so much of what is Meaningful um in The Human Experience is is pared by by yoga teachers these days right as being like something that we should you know get excited about because energy matters that’s how I hear it translated it’s like energy matters and the scientists have told us this but you know what I hear you saying as the first point is that the numbers only work in this model
(27:22) and the adjacent models when you fudge them right they only work when there’s like a post talk adjustment and you know we can certainly do that but let’s not pretend that we’ve really exposed the nature of of reality okay so where do we go from there a logical fallacy that I think is so important not just for cosmology but for everything and especially for cosmology it’s known as affirming the consequent and the technical way of thinking about it is basically if x then y y is true there fourx here’s a simple example if it
(27:55) rains the grass is wet outside I see that the grass is wet outside therefore it rained so the second statement is not accurate because there are many reasons the grass could have been wet so just because the grass was wet and we know that when it rains the grass will be wet doesn’t mean that wet grass indicates that it rained what if there was a sprinkler system on what if a bunch of kids came by and threw buckets of water on the grass we could come up with a million possibilities and what happens in cosmology in medicine and so many
(28:23) other areas is that people get locked into a model of causality of explaining why something happens and then when they observe new things they try to retrofit and force fit those observations into the model that they assume to be true so here’s an example with regard to cosmology to me this is a huge one because we can start with people like Einstein and Stephen Hawking and every major physicist they will tell you that by observing the lights in the sky and the planetary motions you cannot tell whether Earth is at the center which is
(28:51) known as geocentrism or whether the sun is at the center and Earth revolves around the Sun known as heliocentrism the the technical term is that they they are kinematically equivalent when you look at the motion that these two models are equivalent so but what we see happening is that people like to fit their observations into the heliocentric model which I never thought to question because kernus had his Revolution and then Galileo looked through his telescope and wow we realized Earth is not at the center but then looking back
(29:20) at what Galileo quote unquote proved in his telescope how did he prove that we are in a heliocentric universe and I will say his observations could be explained by heliocentrism but actually they can be explained by geocentrism too he observed the phases of Venus which are sort of like the phases of the moon and he said okay well we must be revolving around the Sun but actually if the planets move around the Sun and the sun’s moving around Earth which is a model basically like taob br’s model from way back then that would be
(29:52) geocentric at the core Earth is at the center and that could explain the phases of Venus so that would be a geocentric explanation and the same thing goes with his observations of Jupiter he saw moons basically smaller bodies revolving around Jupiter smaller bodies revolving around larger ones oh the Earth must be revolving around the Sun basically well that’s not necessarily true you could explain the Motions of things in the sky as maybe Earth is at the center and these other things are moving around so that that’s just those are just a few
(30:19) examples where people seem to get locked into a heliocentric cosmology and often that seems to be tied to a philosophical preference it’s actually known as the cernic principle and there’s a great documentary called the principle that goes through this the cernic principle posits that we do not occupy a special place in the cosmos and that’s led many astronomers and physicists like Edwin Hubble who came up with the expanding universe theory he Bas he said it would be a horror it would be intolerable if Earth occupied a
(30:48) special place so he came up with the expanding Universe because that would enabled Earth not to have a special place while creating this whole other cosmology so when you think about it in these terms and you realize that like a lot of these things are not even questioned anymore like the expanding universe that’s basic obviously Earth revolves around the Sun who really questions that it’s because these assumptions of causality haven’t been examined and they get so entrenched that many of the professionals either are
(31:14) don’t have the courage to explore them or maybe they don’t even think to question the assumptions so let’s break down some of the the basics if you will including that we are at the center whatever that means cuz you you add some Nuance to them and you you know it’s it’s typically referred to as as geocentrism and how you were compelled to believe that that’s actually the case having formerly believed that we were just on you know a dead rock floating around spinning at inconceivable rates around uh a sun and then also while it
(31:52) can be a bit of a a straw man this you know flat versus round whatever I the motion concept I think is like a bridge to then considering the fact that we’re not actually on a circle with water sticking to the outside right so I sort of think of those as like a tripartite and you break down uh each of these is in the book but I think of those as like you arrive at one okay yeah that actually does make sense you arrive at another okay yeah and then you ultimately come to really just like shed these these layers of conditioning it’s
(32:28) programming around the primary assumption that the solar system is what we’re told it is and that you know we came from The Big Bang and that gravity is playing this essential role in our day-to-day operations and somehow explaining things like orbits and all of these otherwise inconceivable Concepts that are totally unprovable by the the average you know the average individual so yeah I wonder if you could sort of take us through a high level view like a a bird’s eyee view of the the science that helped you to understand these
(33:04) things differently I like the way you put it because it’s it is different layers that then lead one or at least in my case it led me to then be able to think about the shape of Earth if you just start there it’s it’s a kind of a hard cell especially if you’ve never been familiarized with the concepts when you realize okay we’ve got problems with gravity okay let’s look at geocentrism in Earth’s motion then it the other things become possible so starting with the idea of geocentrism that Earth is at the center or at least on this the the
(33:30) center of the axis of what we can observe there is something called The Cosmic microwave background and this I remember learning about this at Princeton this is the background radiation that was supposed to have come from The Big Bang that proves that there was something that occurred 13.8 billion years ago which if you really think about it the scientists are trying to come up with all kinds of inferences about what happened that long ago in a far away place and come up with this precise model it’s kind of ridiculous
(33:52) when you think about it but they’re basically sort of like with dark matter that that had to be plugged in there’s this inflaton particle that no one’s really figured out that apparently explains the early inflation of the Big Bang in the early Universe it’s known as the reification fallacy when you create an entity and then you speak about it as if it’s real even though it hasn’t been formally established and that’s what happens with a lot of the stuff but the cosmic microwave background this is supposed to be the background radiation
(34:16) that can be detected based on the Big Bang and this there are a number of probes that have that have been able to measure this and you anyone can look it up online the problem is that if Earth is not at the center the prediction would be that the cosmic microwave background is homogeneous and it does not have a preferred Direction so it’s isotropic homogeneous and isotropic that’s the formal term the problem is that it’s not that it’s not homogeneous and it’s anisotropic it does seem have to have a preferred Direction and mainstream
(34:47) cosmologists might say well these are just little anomalies we don’t need to worry about them but it is so problematic in fact that some scientists have called this the axis of Evil because it seems to point toward Earth these little anomalies and there are a number of other astronomical observations that I quote from various physicists who say look we observe this thing about the quazar and it points toward Earth so it’s pointing toward Earth having a a central place and along with this notion of geocentrism is the
(35:12) idea that Earth is stationary they often go hand in hand and if you really think about it if no one told us anything about from mainstream science would we believe that Earth is moving in the following ways we are told that Earth moves in the following ways that Earth is rotating on a tilted axis at 1,000 mph roughly at the equator which is faster than the speed of sound but near the poles it’s almost no motion we’re also told that Earth has multiple wobbles and that Earth revolves around the Sun actually in a state of
(35:42) Freefall at over 66,000 miles per hour and that Earth is moving around the Milky Way galaxy at over 500,000 miles an hour and it’s expanding outward in this expanding universe expanding into who knows what but it’s happening at over 1 million miles hour so everyone listening to this or watching this right now is moving in all of those ways and yet we feel nothing but there’s earthquake we feel that or if we’re moving in a car and there’s any change in motion we accelerate or decelerate even a little bit you feel that you feel
(36:12) it on a plane if there’s any change in motion if there’s a little bit of turbulence you feel it so the argument has to be that we’re just in completely perfect motion and there’s never ever been any disturbance to it and therefore we feel nothing so that this is not proof but it it should make one think for a second our senses would tell us that we live in a stationary place and you look at bodies of water like certain lakes that are perfectly still or surgeons that are performing very precise surgeries and they’re not
(36:36) worrying about like Earth bumping a little bit um so it’s interesting or or rock towers where people build these things where like if there were any motion The Rock would fall but they’re able to build these towers many examples like that where it doesn’t seem like we’re actually moving but the scientists tell us based on all their observations that we are and then we move back to some of the key scientific findings that are still debated but there’s a study from 1887 called the Mickelson morly experiment which many people have since
(37:05) used to to say that there does not exist an ether which is known as The Fifth Element and the quiet part that’s not often stated is that Earth is moving so the idea is that Earth is not moving through an ether under the conventional explanation and I’m just paraphrasing another explanation which many people are starting to question including people like Robert Bennett who’s a PhD who wrote his physics thesis on relativity and comes from a lineage of people who actually studied with Einstein so mainstream guy is is
(37:31) challenging the interpretation another interpretation of the mikkelson Morley study is that The Ether does exist and Earth is stationary but the scientists have chosen one explanation and then we built gravity and relativity and all these things excuse me general relativity on the the interpretation of mikkelson Morley and also a study uh called Aries failure from the 1800s which those who believe in a stationary geocentric Earth would call Aries success so the interpretations of these studies are are very important and most
(37:59) of us who believe in a moving Earth don’t realize that the basis of a lot of this stuff comes from so long ago and I think that’s a good uh just basis for for questioning the stuff and I will before we move on I do want to uh touch on the gravity topic because I’m sure members of your audience are saying wait Mark so like I know an apple falls to the ground because I can show you that again we run into questions of causality it’s not that we’re saying that an apple doesn’t fall to the ground it’s what causes that to happen is it because mass
(38:24) is attracting mass is mass bending SpaceTime like Einstein said or is there something else and this is relevant to Earth’s motion too because all these equations are based on the assumptions of gravity and relativity and the leading theory that many people talk about including Steve Young theoretical physics PhD is that first of all there is density and buoyancy so something an Apple’s denser than the air around it therefore it falls and helium air is less dense than the air around it helium gas excuse me so helium gas will rise
(38:51) and then the question becomes why does a denser thing fall down why is there this downward bias and what many GL Skeptics will say is that there’s a downward electric current which Richard feeman talked about and I quote him in my book so famous physicist that could explain this and this would explain why there are many papers talking about changes in the the rate at which Things Fall during thunderstorms and also something called the Hutchinson Effect where there’s a levitation of large objects using apparently electrical means so there
(39:17) could be some other Force that’s not mass attracting mass that could explain all this stuff so if if we just pause there wait maybe Earth isn’t moving maybe there’s actual science that suggests we’ve misinterpreted results and maybe Earth is at the center and these anomalies that physicists are finding could be easily explained if we move to geocentrism okay wait a second we’re stationary maybe we’re at the center what else can be questioned yeah and I can if you zoom out right there’s seems to be a collective maturation and
(39:45) refinement of our understanding of complex systems right so if we think about the body as like gears and and levers you miss out all of the electromagnetism the body and all of the vibrational medicine that becomes possible when you think about the body as a more complex system than just a bunch of buttons and levers like I learned in medical school you know receptors and things plugging into receptors that of course never been proven actually and you know you are inviting us to consider the same thing with regard to this place that we we
(40:19) live right so could it be that actually what like like the nature of this realm is more refined it’s more complex and electromagnetism certainly allows for these simple explanations to be held in a more nuanced framework that doesn’t require a lot of the you know the uncomfortable management of these you know the basic mathematics that just don’t explain a lot or or you have to go to these extraordinary efforts like heroic efforts to find your way back to explaining something that could very simply like aam’s razor wise be
(40:58) explained through you know like you said density buoyancy and electromagnetism so another point that often comes up is uh you know this idea of inertial frames right so like oh well the reason you don’t feel it is because you know the air is moving along with the thing that you’re moving on and that’s why you don’t feel it because it’s like you know relative to the other stuff that’s moving and you know one of the and again I’m a doctor not a physicist however I remember I had to take physics you know in college and and I remember the
(41:32) concept of a closed system right that you need to have a lid on it you know in order for it to be considered that kind of a frame and there’s so many ideas that you explore also in the book that just don’t seem to work in a vacuum you know things like the propulsion of an engine on a rocket you know in the vacuum of space let alone all of these properties that we assign to our actual atmosphere that that wouldn’t ever be explicable if there wasn’t a lid right so obviously most of us refer to that as the firmament and it helps us to make
(42:06) sense out of a lot of the phenomenological observations that we make but we are right in an open system right it just goes from the the grass in my yard to this infinite expanding void of of nothingness and I’ve just come to wonder like how is it that uh academic physicists Mak sense out of that because I guess that’s when you invoke gravity right because you need a magical uh concept to really um rationalize these otherwise inexplicable things right I think it becomes very far-fetched when we think about this idea of an open
(42:45) pressure system that’s sitting next to a near infinite vacuum of space and by vacuum I mean an extremely low press system so the example that’s often given to explain this is if you open a can of soda in the soda before you open it up there’s a lot of pressure from the gases and when you open the can of soda you hear a loud noise because the air around the soda can has less pressure than the the gases in the can so the loud noise is basically the the reaching of equilibrium of the gases going out of the high pressure system in the can
(43:17) outside into the air around it and that’s what happens in nature is that there’s this equilibrium that’s reached so if what’s happening on Earth is true based on the current cosmological model we’re told then there’s this extremely low pressure system infinite vacuum that’s expanding and getting bigger and bigger of like almost no pressure sitting next to clearly some kind of a pressurized system on Earth our atmosphere but there’s nothing enclosing it so they’re just sitting peacefully next to each other when you’d expect
(43:44) because of this it’s a large gradient the differential between the pressure of our atmosphere that’s holding everything in versus the the low pressure vacuum of space that our atmosphere should just rush out into space without a container being there but we’re know that gravity even though it’s really a weak Force most of the time especially at the high altitudes when it’s far away from the center of mass of Earth somehow gravity is holding everything in it sounds again like a rationalization whereas it’s much
(44:09) more parsimonious or using aam’s razor simpler to say well maybe maybe the whole idea of a vacuum of space isn’t true and maybe there is some kind of enclosure so people love to ask me questions and I love to ask questions of others because inquiry is play but some of my interviews and answers are too hot to handle for Reclamation radio so in my membership vital life project I have created a private podcast that gets delivered to wherever you listen to podcasts where I answer your questions that arise because of my provocative
(44:40) subject matter and I also share interviews that might otherwise be censored that I call the sovereignty Series so you’ll get access to these private podcasts and a private chat by joining my membership vitol life project let’s move on to this shape concept so you bring up a lot of amazing points in the book including uh how far we can see you know beyond the curvature uh the ideas uh of a curvature as accounted for or Not by engineering and navigation and then you know you talk about things like time zones and lunar eclipses obviously
(45:18) you know this is just meant to be sort of like a or derve however I love all of these uh topics because I I really spend a lot of time on on these because as you mentioned it’s almost like the glittery object it’s like well what is the shape then if it’s not we’re not in a ball what is going on and a lot of folks uh have have spent a lot of time on this you know you reference a bunch of these folks like Austin wit it in the uh in the book itself but I wonder if you could give us your high level understanding now of the skepticism you
(45:50) know that you’ve brought to bear when it comes to the the globe shape itself yes and and to reiterate what I’m doing here summarizing what many other people before me have done and I site them so Austin wit it Dave Weiss many others have created resources on this but there are some very interesting examples which to me challenge the model that we have been told and the model is very specific which is that Earth is spherically shaped it’s technically an oblate spheroid because it bulges a little bit at the equator but basically a ball that
(46:16) has a radius value of roughly 4,000 miles so if we find things that contradict that then we run into problems for the current cosmology and like you mentioned Kelly the ability to see things things that should be blocked by the physical curvature of Earth that would invalidate seemingly the radius value of Earth meaning it would invalidate what we’re told about the sphere and there are many examples of people going out and with sometimes you don’t even need telescope or binoculars depending on your altitude so there are
(46:43) all kinds of equations you’d have to look at very carefully but depending on where what your elevation is whether or not you can see things this would sort of be like trying to see something that’s around a Bend if the bend were there I.E if the curvature of Earth were there you wouldn’t be able to it because you’d actually be blocked by the mass of Earth and yet repeatedly people can see things and what the mainstream answer to this is it’s that it’s refraction so what you’re seeing is a mirage it’s not actually there the light is bending so
(47:10) that it looks like it’s there and one of the most famous examples is being able to see the Chicago skyline from a distance away that wouldn’t make sense and this was all in the news and and the answer from the main stream is yeah this was a mirage that you’re seeing but that’s just one example out of many that people have looked at and what was compelling to me was that when I would have expected the agencies to just show example after example of look this should be blocked by Earth curvature and you can’t see it like many many examples
(47:37) of that just proving that it’s you can’t see things but actually the reverse seems to be true people go out on their own and they’re able to see things but that’s that’s not it I mean if that were it I don’t think I could have written a book but there are many other reasons to ask questions you mentioned time zones and also I want to put this together with magnetic declination because to me these were super powerful examples um magnetic declination is basically the idea that Earth’s magnetic poles do not match the geographic poles on the
(48:04) spherical model so there’s a geographic location that we call the North Pole but the magnetic north isn’t there and the Magnetic South isn’t near this isn’t at the geographic South Pole and actually these magnetic poles are moving around for reasons that are not well understood and we’re told that the magnetic field of Earth comes from the core of Earth problem is we’ve never been to the core and actually the farthest anyone’s a ever been able to dig down is under eight miles and the radius is roughly 4,000 so we’ve barely gone down at all
(48:34) to be able to know what’s below us I mean ideally if we had the technology we’d want to dig all the way down through the core and then out the other side into space to prove a sphere that would be one way to do it we’ve only been able to dig down under eight miles so the idea of a core is completely theoretical and by the way when they were digging down almost eight miles there were many mistakes and many things they didn’t predict based on whatever assumptions were there so who knows what’s actually at the core but the idea
(48:58) even though we’ve never been to the core haven’t proved it that the outer part of the core spins in a way that generates the magnetic field and has to do with Earth Earth’s Tilt it’s known as the geodynamo theory the problem is no one’s ever replicated a geodynamo theory so the whole o notion of Earth’s magnetic field is based on all sorts of assumptions that haven’t been validated now where this becomes very practical and sort of hooked me is that this effects are navigation so people who need to get to a geographic location you
(49:25) need a compass the problem is you you have to adjust your compass and there’s a a website anyone can go to magnetic declination tocom that shows you basically the amount of adjustment that you would need at different Geographic locations what’s most interesting to me about this is that things go Haywire in Antarctica below the 60th south latitude in particular which coincidentally is where the Antarctic treaty starts to restrict travel since 1959 governments around the world have made it basically impossible to have free and private
(49:56) exploration of all of Antarctica certainly you can go to little parts of it but saying you went to San Francisco doesn’t mean you saw all of North America like we need to have free and private exploration of everything and they say they’re environmental restrictions and so forth but south of the 60th south latitude we see the magnetic declinations at sometimes like over 170 degrees in other words if your compass is telling you one thing you need to turn around if you want to get to the right location and then a few
(50:20) miles away it’s like positive 50 degrees and then a little bit away it’s like negative 30 something anyone can go and and check this out but if you were to take a plane of Earth so instead of flat let’s say Earth is a topographical plane meaning it has Peaks and valleys mountains and valleys but it’s a plane if you were to try to wrap that around a sphere you would end up having to really compress what is Antarctica on the sphere okay let me just also explain this the conventional way people think about this topographical plane of Flat
(50:52) Earth the leading theory is that Earth is actually a circle so so it’s round in a circular sense not in a spherical sense which is important but if you took everything you saw on a globe put it into a circular Lake and around the side of it is an ice wall that contains the lake that ice wall is Antarctica so under the flat framework Antarctica is not a continent but rather it’s an ice wall and in order to prove this we would need to be able to explore it which we can’t do fully so there are things that remain theoretical but if you took that
(51:17) general idea as as what’s generally true and you tried to wrap it around a sphere you would end up having to compress Antarctica significantly into this continent at the bottom so that would explain that’s interesting that’s why it goes haywire and also interestingly at the equator which is where the the flat and the spherical models are closest that’s where there’s the least amount of magnetic declination adjustment for navigation so that’s interesting time zones are kind of similar in this regard because it would be it would be really
(51:49) really simple to just come up with 24 time zones 24 hours in a day and yet we have 24 time zones at the equator but in the North hemisphere it’s 19 time zones and in the southern hemisphere it’s 32 so you end up with a very similar thing where at the Equator the flat and the spherical actually seem to align much more but when you go outside of that things go Haywire especially in the southern hemisphere where basically time zones seem to be hidden in the ocean randomly and the Skeptics of what what I’m saying they’ll say this is just all
(52:17) there are political reasons for it but one might wonder is is the true shape of Earth being hidden by this sort of thing and um and one I’ll just give one more example before pausing there’s an type of eclipse called a salinan lunar eclipse where the eclipsed moon and the sun are both visible at the same time which would not make sense sense under the globe model because Earth is supposed to be getting in the way and casting a shadow so the argument for mainstream cosmology again is refraction you are seeing an illusion when you see
(52:47) that and I even quoted a scientific U website they were like yeah the selian eclipse It seems impossible but arguably it is impossible unless you invoke this magical refraction where maybe something else is happening maybe it’s not the globe of Earth that’s causing the eclipse and a lot of what you’re referencing including the way that engineers build Bridges and you know railroad tracks are are laid Lane anyway uh down on on the earth you’re you’re referencing the fact that if we look at a a planer map it makes sense that’s
(53:24) like easily accessed and is also true with like emergency flight Landings right there’s people who’ve you know written books and collected uh flight paths to illustrate that these emergency Landings are done in ways that make total sense on a plane and make plane p l NE and well wait a minute that’s exactly the same spelling you know what I’m saying like on a on a on a flat but it’s it’s it it ends up being a distraction to use that word so I like to use the word plain anyway um they make total sense in that model and make
(53:56) lit literally no sense at all in the model that wraps it around a ball as you’re describing wraps that map around around a ball and so a lot of the confusion and the inconsistency that you’re referencing is when you are insisting that it is on a ball it doesn’t work right so when you’re saying you need to turn the compass around that’s based on your assumptions that you would only make if you’re um assuming that it’s this land mass at the bottom of the globe right exactly it’s so deeply ingrained that people don’t
(54:25) ask well maybe we’ve just gotten it wrong about where we live oh no we just have to adjust our compasses in order to get to the right place that’s just what you do right right and so this phenomenon is is what we see becomes necessary when we need to kind of dance around our our assumptions so I want to touch on one other subject Mark before we wrap up because we could go this could be a whole you know weekend Workshop obviously but uh which is the subject of NASA uh because you deconstruct a lot about and it ends up
(54:56) for for whatever Reon I find this very entertaining like you know and it is it’s so much better looking at videos and stuff of of footage and bloopers and are you kidding me like we are meant to believe this but if you don’t take the time which of course most of us don’t right like I never did I never even thought twice about it and like I said I I you know I dated a a rocket scientist at in college then you might not see the sort of potential pyramid scheme that is the organization itself and the sort of almost mockery and plain sight that is
(55:33) the presumption that any of this is real uh even if it is gatee kept by just a few individuals like of course it’s real and you know I even you know you think about like almost like the childlike wonder that some people experience as contrasted to the adult empowerment of a geocentric cosmology the childlike wonder that that folks experienced when they like look at pictures of the planets you know that are are CGI rendered and it just I don’t know if it’s like from the mobiles that hung over our cribs or you know the pictures
(56:10) in our kindergarten classrooms or or what is it but I can I can feel that almost uh you know childlike state that is meant to be induced by the invocation of the artwork and the visuals associated with NASA propaganda relative to you know what what some have come to understand is uh more likely to be provable by the average individual right so things that you can go out you can you can see how far you can see you can sense what your body is sensing you can you know track so many aspects of what is actually going on in our lived
(56:44) experience and you don’t need to you know reference some you know acronym agency to have an understanding of what’s going on the same way you don’t need to do so with you know the medical system either it’s your body you can know it so yeah there’s so much to say about about NASA but I wonder you know if you could speak quickly to not quickly speak how long you want to the conclusions that you’ve come to around uh NASA that surprised you maybe relative to what you used to believe in some ways this was the hardest thing for
(57:15) me because it’s we’ve just seen so much about space from NASA and we’ve visually seen it and to think that it’s all a lie it’s really hard um and actually I put this at chapter six of the book because if we think about it from the perspective of let’s say from the 1940s before there was this kind of space exploration it would be much easier to challenge the current cosmology but since NASA and other space agencies the visual information then implies massive conspiracy which I know a lot of us many people don’t like to do the other stuff
(57:46) we could say oh they just messed up the science and they got they had too much ego and they were affirming the consequent but when you started to talk about space agencies there has to be deception there’s no way around it and intention intentional deception and doesn’t mean every single person at the agency knows you could have people who are innocently following along they’re taking in data that they don’t know has been forged or whatever it is or they’re uh coming to conclusions just because of their assumptions but there has to be
(58:08) something or someone at least a few that are perpetrating something um I start the chapter off quoting eigor vul who is a Russian cosmonaut a famous one who said we never went to space he was interviewed I believe it was in 2014 by a Bulgarian journalist who that Bulgarian journalist years later validated again that that’s what he was told by this Russian cosmonaut so that’s pretty interesting also the uh moonlanding Telemetry tapes so this would the data from the missions they’re gone aside from a few canisters of one
(58:35) of the missions and I quote an NASA document that says they’re gone that to me is outrageous for such an remarkable achievement of humanity for the the data to be gone H that’s interesting and also I would guess members of your audience who are new to this they’re probably saying well I’ve seen pictures that show curvature so what do you mean like so you think all the pictures are fake number one I think any picture we see look at the fine print because often it says this is CGI meaning computer generated or it’s a composite it’s put
(59:04) together from many images or it’s an artist rendition and you can go on NASA’s website I quot I mentioned one it was an artist rendition of something from Jupiter for example and one of the classic images the Blue Marble image which is on all the iPhones or one of the early iPhones this was photoshopped admittedly by a NASA artist and I he was interviewed about this and he basically talked about how he made something that he thought would be like Earth but the last image we supposedly have that has not CGI or photoshopped or or altered in
(59:33) any way comes from 1972 from the Moon allegedly and but but even that is a disc that we see we see a circle really if we wanted to prove Earth as a sphere Kelly what would we do we would have a camera out in space that shows the full sphere in continuous footage doing a full rotation and it would show us the things that we’re told to believe that sound kind of crazy like buildings on the top standing upright and buildings on the bottom of Earth hanging upside down and then buildings on the side hanging sideways all at once we’d want
(1:00:04) to see that continuous footage we don’t have that we’d also want to see Earth in its place allegedly in the solar system in the correct order with the Sun at the center and everything else we don’t have that what do we have we have these images of a disc or these sort of blurry images from the Moon and we have lots of renderings but then we do have some images that look like you’re they’re showing curvature like from the ISS or the um uh Felix bomgardner who went up in like a Red Bull test and apparently it showed the curvature of Earth problem
(1:00:35) is he was using a fisheye lens so the lens that’s used has to be examined always and we never have the full picture U and I want to emphasize this too because some people I had someone say this the other day like I go up in a plane Mark and I see curvature what do you mean like how could you even entertain this idea there’s a distinction between the appearance of of circular curvature versus spherical curvature spherical means it’s curving down and Away in every direction because apparently we’re always at the top of
(1:01:04) the sphere that’s what the model would predict and so as we get to certain altitudes and we can do the math on what the curvature would be it would be bending down and away and also the Horizon as we Ascend should be going down and Away more and more but actually it always Rises to eye level which is interesting it doesn’t we don’t see that but on a plane you might or even on on the ground you might it look might look like you’re seeing in a dome and this has to do with visual perspective which is a much longer conversation basically
(1:01:30) the way that we see things that are uh in the distance it looks like they’re going down so we end up with a personalized it’s called an azimuthal grid of vision which shows us the appearance of a personalized Dome where it’s circular but it’s not spherical so that’s a point of confusion that many people should consider and then the last thing before I pause on NASA is the ISS because I get asked about this all the time it was really hard for me but I’m watching video after video of something falling while another thing is floating
(1:01:59) at the same time and even a video I mentioned in the book of an astronaut saying yeah sometimes we hit these gravity Pockets so he’s got a hammer floating because it’s zero gravity allegedly and he’s like he holds a playing card and just drops it and it falls straight down so even though you have this ISS that’s going thousands of miles an hour he somehow knew there was a gravity pocket in that one place at the time he was doing it and was able to drop a card and it fell straight down and the Hammer’s still floating at the
(1:02:22) same time there are many examples like that and to me if there’s any instance of fraud you to question every like how can you trust anything if it’s that bad had to mention that what is the figure of the amount of money going to fun NASA every day it’s like something it’s ridiculous like Millions a day it’s 100 million a day or something oh the Antics the Antics so the subtitle of your book Mark to wrap up is rethinking the Big Bang heliocentrism the lights in the sky and where we live so if you could put it
(1:02:55) in a nutshell what do you believe at this point yeah it’s a great question because the book I I try to take the most conservative route possible and like you said I I tried to design a book that you could hand to anyone and really just start from the basics so it was more focused on disproving the current theory so I I would say that I don’t think there was a big bang 13.
(1:03:15) 8 billion years ago that we told happened I don’t think we live in a heliocentric Universe I think geocentrism or something like it is much more likely I think the lights in the sky that we see meaning the Stars the planets are much closer than we’ve been told even the sun we’re told the sun’s 93 million miles away and the the Moon is 238,000 miles away and when there’s an eclipse it just so happens that their sizes and distances match so that they’re like the exact same size and you have one eclipse and the other I think they’re probably much closer in size and
(1:03:45) much closer to us but I do have a lot of questions about what the lights in the sky are I do think there are lights and things happening up there I just don’t fully know what they are and we really can’t test that and the last part is and where we live um I I used to think that we were on a ball floating in space which is kind of when we think about it and like Free Falling around the Sun but we don’t feel it I I don’t think that’s true I do think there are many observations so like some of the ones we talked about
(1:04:09) and also things like horizontal wave propagation when waves go out in a horizontal manner but they somehow reach another part portion of the curve and there all kinds of ways that’s explained or the ways that whales can communicate allegedly around a curve using Sonar waves and somehow like the waves are bending around the curve there they are very weird things that that would be much easier to explain if we said that we lived on a plane so I think there are many observations that fit that but I also have questions just metaphysically
(1:04:33) because I don’t really know what matter is and there are a lot of things that aren’t being explored because the funding is not going toward towards it and we we were so stuck in the heliocentric uh spherical model that we’re unable to test things that would be nice to test but if if matter isn’t as solid as we think it is then I do think reality is malleable in some sense which raises all sorts of questions about like can we trust that the way something was 10 years ago is it that way now like do things change over time
(1:04:59) do things change based on our Consciousness and it leaves me in a place of feeling like I really don’t have a good sense of what this place is and going back to what I said at the very beginning of like I never asked the question what does it mean to be here like where do we live it ties into the bigger medical metaphysical questions because where we live might inform why we’re here and I I feel in many ways more confused than ever about it like I just don’t know what this place is what’s the real history I have big
(1:05:24) questions about that I don’t think the history books are correct but I don’t know what the correct history is and it’s like how could we collectively be in such a state of ignorance to get it so far wrong in so many areas not just cosmology and Medicine everywhere else it just points to me I mentioned in this in the book that we’re in some kind of a spiritual war where I think there are dark forces that are keeping us in a place of ignorance and then using very good people who believe the assumptions and then propagate the ignorance yeah
(1:05:49) perhaps so that we can claim our innate knowledge for ourselves right so Perhaps it is all still by design that cloaking you know of our inner knowing and the reveal it is quite delightful I think and I just as you were speaking I got this ping I was like oh his next book is going to be about history because that’s another one that’s very needed I’m just going to have the little your little library on my shelf for my for my kids to probably never read no they in it a lot of this stuff and they don’t need the same pedagogy that you know people
(1:06:25) in my gener anyway seemed to need a lot of defragging of the programming it’s really pretty extraordinary to to Bear witness to so last thing last last last thing I promised is there something that you would say to your you know your your former thinking self right so maybe even like six months ago right or whatever like a year ago when you feel into the like who cares that this is you know wrong or uninteresting or like that’s a scop or you know some sort of word conspiracy theory like people taking questioning too far like is there
(1:07:01) something you would say to yourself about this transition right because what we talked about today we really showcased what a a revolution in personal belief looks like right and and what um the anatomy of it is like how it is that you find these little ruptures and you allow them to unravel I I like the analogy of like it’s like you know the movie screen has a tear in it and you think like oh it’s not a big deal like I’ll just just tape it up it’s fine and then it just keeps staring keeps staring keeps staring and eventually you
(1:07:30) can’t watch the movie like the the show’s over right you gotta get up realize you were in a movie walk out decide what you’re going to do with your afternoon and so that process requires a maturational fortitude that is certainly not for everyone it’s probably not even compelling uh for for everyone let alone available and I wonder if there’s something you might like whisper to your your former self to invite this I would say that it’s it comes down to challenging assumptions and asking myself why is it that I believe this
(1:08:03) thing to be true very deeply and if someone told me it’s true or they pointed me to a scientific paper what’s what are the assumptions baked into that so that’s what I’ve had to do more and more is challenge all the assumptions but as I got into the cosmology topic it really was not as disorienting for me as some of the other ones it’s sort of like okay here’s another one I mean everything else I thought wasn’t was true is not and it was basically a bigger version of the medical Paradigm that I was exploring of The Germ theory
(1:08:31) of of seeing false or or conclusions that were unwarranted but it was on a bigger scale because now it’s it’s physics and the big bang and shape of Earth and gravity it’s like a million different things but when you actually take the time to go through each one it’s all it’s all there and there isn’t a compelling counterargument and my now my book’s been out for I don’t know several weeks and I still haven’t heard compelling counterargument or compelling experiment or set of experiments that definitively Pro Pro the current
(1:08:56) cosmology like give me an example that shows for sure Earth is spherically shaped and moving in all these different directions and give me an example that can’t be explained by something else because certainly the globe model can explain a number of phenomena but that doesn’t mean that it is the correct model in the same way the grass is wet doesn’t mean that it rained and that’s the reason why so to me it’s like this exercise on a bigger scale that I would have whispered to myself but I I was open to this so I would I would just
(1:09:22) maybe go to myself eight years ago before I started exploring all these things where maybe there was a part of me that knew something was off but I was just so focused on my life the way it was and I just I was on the treadmill and I was going to keep trying to achieve because I thought science told us something and I wasn’t I had never explored it so maybe what I would have whispered to myself back then or even earlier was start looking into these assumptions that you’ve been told about why you exist and what Earth is and how
(1:09:46) Society Works start exploring it in your free time just a little bit and if I think if I had done that I probably would have been open but I was so focused on other things amazing scientism is a powerful field yeah when we we really see it for what it is which is a religious orientation right so the book is called an end to the upside down Cosmos I am so so so delighted to have you among the ranks and uh really enjoy just bearing peripheral witness to your your process and the Integrity with which you approach just about anything
(1:10:19) you intend to explore it’s really really refreshing and I can’t wait to see what you have next we’ll make sure that the links are in the show notes and I want to thank you Mark thank you so much Kelly and thank you for your open-mindedness too [Music] [Music]
