How to Change

(00:01) so have you ever heard the story of the handless maiden her father makes a poor bargain with the devil and unwittingly exchanges his daughter for Endless riches but the devil can’t quite get to her even after ordering that her hands be cut off by her own Dear Dad she leaves she embarks on a journey into the wild unknown she meets a king she loses him she has a baby she finds her tribe she grows back her hands she finds her King and she lives happily ever after it’s a tale we all have the opportunity to live into

(00:41) one of betrayal violation confusion deception and sweet triumphant Reclamation that would have never been possible if not for the darker days that preceded your story is no different navigating your heroin’s journey requires that you walk in the dark without a map the TR truth is that you already know how to and my hand is reaching out to remind you I am so excited to announce my latest book on the subject called the reclaimed woman it’s available for pre-order now and if you head to the lincol show notes you

(01:18) can learn more about bonuses events and companion offerings and I would be so honored to meet you on the path [Music] I’m Dr Kelly Brogan you may know me as a New York Times bestselling author of a book with an exploding pill on the cover Renegade psychiatrist pul dancer or honorary member of the disinformation Dozen what can I say I’m a born provocator I’ve spent most of my recent life exposing deceptions connecting dots and discovering the secret places my inner victim is still waiting to be liberated and now I feel called to help

(02:03) you reclaim all of your parts your health your sexuality your power and your expression so that you can finally truly own yourself I want to ignite in you that inner knowing and the pulsing Vitality that lives beneath your disempowerment disconnection and resentment so that you can audaciously courageously and playfully alchemize your struggle into the specific pleasure of who you are this is Reclamation radio hi and welcome back to Reclamation radio I am Dr Kelly Brogan and I am here with Dr nicolea Pera aka the holistic

(02:43) psychologist and I have decided that it is important for me to showcase the most powerful disruptors in the realm of what we call mental health or mental illness that’s why I just you know got off the line with Teal Swan and I’m just sort of feeling into who is on my page about the conclusions that we’ve come to around so-called mental illness and how has their Journey been informed by such different experiences you know leading you to very very similar conclusions so I’m super honored super delighted to be

(03:18) in conversation with you and I want to start Nicole at the switch point for you because like me you were a card carrying cult member you you absolutely had drunk the Kool-Aid right so you were a believer in the pathology based framework for cognition Behavior mood related issues that were causing distress in somebody’s life and you probably fancied yourself in a good position to be able to help them to fix what was wrong with them and then something transitioned right so you had some kind of a light bulb go on and I

(03:58) would love to Showcase that because I think it’s it’s archetypal right like when we get invited to walk our heroin’s journey there’s a signature to it and I think one of the most important things we could do as we navigate is to recognize when we’re in one of those Choice points and we decide to take the Road Less Traveled so I’d love for you to take us back there absolutely and um even just thinking back as long as I can remember you know probably around High School where conversations get started in terms of what are you going to do

(04:29) when you grow up and of course I was primed and ready at the high school that would set me up for the college to be able to do whatever it was right that I had wanted and what I personally had wanted to do was to become a psychologist because for me I was really fascinated in understanding others of course I think it was generated from a desire to understand myself so yes I was happily marching forward to be the person that would be able to help others much like myself that were suffering I even have a flashball memory as you were

(04:55) describing drinking the Kool-Aid of sitting at my kitchen table then Flash forward now I was in a clinical program in my early 20s and I had just you know learned the genetic model and my myself I had struggled with anxiety for as long as I can remember at that period in time I was having panic attack after panic attack and I remember sitting at my kitchen table around my family where I let them know right genetically this is just a chip that is now missing in my brain I’m very aware of it and off I am to Now find medication and this is just

(05:24) going to be the story of my life and of course I was sharing it with people that from my perspective at least share the similar anxiety structure framework now of course Flash Forward in time and you as I mentioned before we hit record have played a a really pivotal role in my transition so IID had a private practice I was living in Philadelphia my hometown if you will at that time I’d start to see clients week after week as I’m sure you know the deal month after month and started to feel really really frustrated really disempower didn’t feel

(05:55) like the work I was doing with others was working didn’t honestly feel like the work I was doing on myself and in my own treatment rooms was working until I had a friend who actually suggested to my wife the podcast that you would recorded with Joe Rogan and we were going on a long road trip and I’m not one to listen to to podcast in general definitely not super long ones like that but something drew me to it we were on the road long enough and I popped it in and I’m so grateful because when I started to hear you speak of the B’s

(06:23) role predominately for me that was a huge light bulb and all of this different understanding of epigenetics and where mental or and wellness really comes from um for me that was a and I I wouldn’t call it a cataclysmic transition moment I mean my life didn’t immediately miraculously change from top to bottom starting that next day though I was now armed with information that gradually over time I quite literally overhauled my own life my own Lifestyle the choices I was making to integrate some more holistic Wellness

(06:53) opportunities to begin to regulate my nervous system and then very shortly after as I started to make some Headway in this experience of anxiety that I had imagined up until that point I would carry with me for life at that moment than I knew I had to begin to much like you speak more holistically transition the practice that I was working with individuals more holistically and ultimately arriving where I am now experimenting in community-based Virtual healing platforms to be able to not only increase the accessibility of this

(07:24) information but really harness the necessity I think that many of us are especially post-pandemic experience exping in terms of loneliness and needing connection and safe spaces to find those connections I’m sure you would agree and and I imagine this is the ripple effect that your work and your platforms have is that when you are exposed to the right information but you’re a receptive vesicle for that transition for that transformation it’s like the perfect Alchemy right so so like it’s not like you got anything from

(07:58) that show Rogan podcast you weren’t already ripe for and I imagine that’s true literally if somebody sees a a meme on your platform that feels true and I call it giving permission right like give gives them permission or you permission to diffuse aspects of your identity that are keeping you stuck in in these patterns of struggle and you had a lot of your own right so so you and I would I think both say the same thing about this kind of wounded healer archetype that we fit into right so we have our and in imagining that we

(08:31) can save somebody else from theirs we are discovering like how similar right the archetypal aspects of the journey are and in your first book you you talk a lot about archetypes and I am as psychiatrist and I know I know it’s the same for you like the patterns and identifying how the patterns play out is very stabilizing grounding and it doesn’t it doesn’t mean that we’ve like cracked the code but it allows us to orient right like what kinds of Dynamics are at play here and what should I be potentially looking out what can I

(09:04) choose to be looking out for in myself right so I wonder if we can sort of starting with your experience like dig into some of these archetypal patterns that you lived and maybe live still I don’t know that started to inform you about what you’re seeing is so like commonly lived by others right so you talk about inner child archetypes you talk about my favorite subject trauma Bond archetypes and relational archetypes right and these patterns of Dynamics and even parent archetypes and that we kind of fit into these different

(09:41) buckets so like what do you feel like based on your experience you’ve come to understand is most helpful for people to know in terms of these patterns of relationship that we would otherwise like never even think about I think and how archetypes and and or patterns I think that’s a simple way that I think of what an type is I think that they can be greatly informative like you’re beautifully describing right they can give us information of our own patterning you know of the own ways in which for many of us we’re kind of

(10:10) compelled to act and I think it can normalize you know especially as you start to hear other people identifying with similar archetypal patterns you can feel a little less alone in your suffering a little less shameful though I think what’s really important to understand of course I’ll go into what I noticed about myself I very quickly and back to even this idea of being open for information I very much met what I call resistance so even openness even awareness of my say archetypal pattern that’s what I will always cite as the

(10:39) first step of creating change becoming aware of how it is that we’re kind of acting in the world or reacting in the world though I will be the first to think that that’s that is step one because step two the embodiment of new patterns right being open to the information was a huge First Step though those first couple days weeks months when I began to action in a new way then I really came face to face with the power of our body you know driven by our body I should say and our desire to stay in familiar patterns even those that are

(11:13) causing suffering so for me it became really clear like what I saw in myself and I think we are very patterned creatures many of us even call our personality right this constellation of patterns that we had to create to navigate the environments and the relationships that we were born into some of us become so fused with that that we truly believe that is who we are but as I go into especially in this new book where it really breaks down relationships and really understanding the power of those earliest worlds right

(11:44) from the relationship to the environment to the epigenetics of those and our ancestors who came before us we are so conditioned in a way that I think some of us we can’t clearly see our patterning and or we can’t clearly break them and so what we you know from how we think about oursel what we believe who we believe oursel to be to how we navigate our emotions to generally who we show up and who we believe oursel to be in the world is really driven by archetype and I think even just thinking of me personally the wounded healer what

(12:18) I saw in all of my relationships in my professional and my personal right was this desire to become defined by my function the role that I played for someone else right and of course for me this as it does for most of us originated in early childhood when I became very clear that I could grab the attention of my caregivers my mom in particular when I was as I would call it performing when I was getting the good grades when I was a star athlete when I was right kind of presenting the family and being the child who would go to the

(12:50) college that would right do something with herself so I became so fused that I did wake up well into my 30s with almost what like a hole inside of me as I was becoming clear oh my gosh we’re patterned who I think I am right is this person who’s driven by achievement though the reality of it is that is truly the only way I knew myself I didn’t know what I thought I didn’t know how I felt I didn’t know what I wanted to do how I wanted to act outside of moments where I was endlessly whether directly or indirectly seeking the

(13:24) validation whether it was from my partners whether it was from my clients whether it was from the world around me and so again I think all of our archetypes look different but what is very clear to me is how fused some of us can become with them how some of us only know ourselves in this idea of the function that we play and then more so how destabilizing it is when we awaken at whatever age that is and we feel that emptiness we feel that disregulation and our body is driving us right almost compulsively back into the old patterns

(13:58) that we falsely create created a sense of Safety and Security around I imagine you can relate to this phenomenon I’ve spoken a lot about especially recently that I I think presents in women to varying degrees depending on what they were congratulated for seen for acknowledged for in their childhood right where when I would achieve the thing right when I would secure the Accolade all of these Peak experiences of performance in my life they would feel Hollow right and I would have this dissonance that said like well you

(14:34) should be happy now it happened right you got the 4.0 you graduated the place you got into this program you you know have this credential and immediately my system would train on the next you know the next shiny object and the Hungry Ghost that is you know this starvation for validation which I you know when I think about sort of the yin-yang masculine feminine Dynamics like I think of as being a masculine value right to feel validated versus like just loved you know love for being and when I think about that I don’t know that there ever

(15:09) would be enough right like how many millions of subscribers or followers how many millions of dollars how many important acknowledgements like and I think we see this right we we see this often in in people who have these measurable accolades and I wonder was there a point at which you started to feel the ESS of that lifestyle I think I mean really consistently much like you across every moment of achievement right the graduation the award immediately followed by if I didn’t already know what was going to be next looking to

(15:44) what was going to be next in the moment right looking grasping for someone to give me the validation shamefully feeling like oh I should be happier than I am now and for me it even kind of trickled into my my personal life outside of Celebration right and what comes to immediate mind is how painfully lonely for me historically birthdays have been holidays have been right these other moments where we’re expecting to feel loved connected celebrated and it’s not to say that I didn’t have many birthdays where I was in a relationship

(16:18) with a romantic partner where I had access or friends would come and visit me or they were in the town in which I was living so it wasn’t that I had absence of relationships in those moments of holiday or of birthday celebration it was even in the presence that emptiness for me is is probably a sematic memory while I struggle to recall a lot of the kind of autobiographical details of my childhood I a well if you will of sematic memories and what I remember very clearly is a pressure feeling on my chest and I

(16:52) really do translate that to the deepest feeling of I would call it a blend of of loneliness and and of grief that began from a very early time when I didn’t have the emotional atunement that I needed and so continuing then to seek outward to find myself always with friendships with plans with something to do say on my birthday but always kind of going back to feeling that whole and then for the better part of at least two decades watching myself cycle through all of these attempts at self soothing actions right drinking too much partying

(17:25) too much keeping myself too busy whether with socializing or with accolades that quite literally as I entered into my 30s I hit the wall and thank God that was at the same moment where I had access to this information I was ready to receive it but that was the time when my body was literally beginning to shut down I lost Consciousness I fainted on two occasions and I think it was just again this life of pushing right of kind of the masculine energy of just driving past all of my emotions because I didn’t have the Attunement the safe space to

(17:58) learn how to na navigate them on my own and then couple that with all of the self- soothing behaviors that were equally exhausting living in New York City keeping myself running from morning till night then it was the recipe for exhaustion and shutdown that my first inclination when those symptoms started to happen before I had this awareness of my nervous system and my body were scary if I’m being honest that was the moment where I thought oh gosh here’s the moment in time now where I as coming from a family who struggled with chronic

(18:29) health issues chronic illness chronic pain for as long as I can remember I at that moment thought oh gosh I’m now losing Consciousness this must be the moment where now I have The Chronic health issue perhaps wrong with my brain maybe this ex you know explains why I don’t have memories right all this was coming together in an alternate narrative that would have sent me down a much different path had I not gained this access to information that allowed me to view not only those symptoms but really everything we’re talking about

(18:57) now all of this archetypal patterning right all of this drive to perform this deepr rooted hole that I still sometimes feel in my heart right now I have a new explanation and thankfully new empowered choices that don’t tell me that old message the old message of there is no change possible this is just something you have to live with right you’re just genetically doomed to this this outcome in life I finally for the first time right saw a glimpse of of possibility in a New Direction I love this and I think I’m just reminded of one of the many

(19:29) reasons I love and resonate with your work and I’m so grateful that you’re out there doing your damn thing girl is that you deliver the invitation to personal responsibility with the like splash of cold water in the face of like a powerful reframe in a very compassionate way probably way more compassionate than I than I do in so many ways right so when you speak about the role of these imprints and this misattunement that we you she all of us experienced in childhood you seem to make sure that nobody gets stuck in the swirl of

(20:13) victimhood that can attend a lot of the trauma based discussion that is in the Zeitgeist right now right because you can get to a place where you go from believing there’s I have no choice there’s nothing I can do it’s my jeans it’s my heredity look here the other shoe has dropped and I’m for life you can go from that to understanding and gaining insight and even self-compassion around how your needs weren’t met in childhood and you can actually stay in the same energy of for me no fair this sucks something really

(20:46) big happened to me it happened in the past I can’t change it and now I just have to cope with it to me that’s the same narrative as my genes are broken right or my chemical imbalance is like disabling so the ingredient of the reframe right and the invitation to personal responsibility is how I think you would agree you translate that awareness and that insight into actual experiential behavioral change in your relationships right and in your lived experience so I wonder if you could talk about like how do we not get stuck in

(21:28) the poor me so sad I was so traumatized my parents were so up in all these different ways and I keep falling into this pattern I’m stuck in this pattern over and over again like how do we not get arrested there and instead work with that to bring forth change into our lived experience and to feel inspired that like we’re here to create the experience we want to have even though you know we have these deep grooves and imprints I mean before I hand you the mic I’ll say like I’ve come to conclusion in my relationships with

(22:01) all Dimensions including my business in my life that I may just have the same  my whole life right like I may have the same patterns the same defenses the same you know kind of like messed up way that Kelly has learned to relate to the world and what has changed is that there’s space inserted where there was previously reflex and there are choices that I didn’t literally didn’t know existed before and that makes for a more fun life like a more interesting life and a life where I feel that the Locust of control is actually restored here

(22:38) instead of remaining in my trauma in my genes with my parents or somewhere let alone the medical system or my chemical imbalance somewhere outside of me so like how do you think it’s important to support people in the transition from awareness of like how we were messed up right because you’re you’re really good at that like you’re really good at shining a light on all of the ways that we were messed up and to resolve the gas light that says you should be feeling fine it’s fine that’s in the past it’s not a big deal

(23:07) like and how do you think it’s important to move from that awareness into like actual behavioral responsibility and Associated change in relationship and probably you know you could speak to also this book I would love for that you know to be a part of this conversation I think even just beginning right with this powerless disempowered right a victim to whatever it is the circumstance the relationship around us right from that stance or that that space let me call that space to be in I want to normalize it first and then I’ll

(23:39) kind of shift into compassionately hopefully making the transition and what I came to even see in myself is it’s really understandable when we are living right a reactive life driven by all these patterns wired into like the lower regions of our brain right the emotionally driven the nervous system driven reactions it is very natural to feel as I spent many decades of my life feeling that the world is happening to me right because things happen out there and we tune in usually when we’re in the throws of an overwhelming emotion and or

(24:15) the reaction to whatever the emotion is right and nowhere along at least for me nowhere along that pathway did I feel I had where did you used your choice control groundedness right the ability to step back and create a space to say do I want to be and do I want this train to keep rolling down this track so I really do want to normalize like all of this kind of mental mindbody process that’s happening behind the scenes that’s causing what for a lot of us feels like our instinctive way of being and then we tune in right mids screaming

(24:51) yelling maybe after the fact where we feel shameful and that’s I think the moment where some of us at least are starting to be like oh gosh like like where did that come from is that really and then maybe even some of us entertain oh maybe that is really who I am maybe I am a person right so without that space what I’m trying to say is it is so natural to believe the world is happening to us because we don’t have those points of choice and then compound that with much like my 20-year-old self at that dinner table right I looked

(25:22) around and what a lot of us are surrounded with in in the form of our families right these relationships and environments in which we were raised we see so much similar patterning reactivity right ways of being that of course now we feel like these things are just genetically instinctually who we are so why would we be able to change and then maybe even strengthen that even more with if you’re like myself and you have parents that are up in age my dad is near 87 years old who then affirm right this is just how I am right I

(25:52) can’t change and I think that’s a a very common message that we hear right this idea that we just are who we are from birth until death and there’s just a trajectory and no one can shift or change or impact that and I think that has a lot also to do with the older medical model of genetic determinism who essentially said just that right we things happen they’re going to genetically Express themselves or not and we don’t have that say so normalizing that for me and even like I said earlier becoming aware of the

(26:21) patterning didn’t immediately give myself space didn’t immediately shift how I what I embodied in terms of my choices in that moment right I was in a lot of ways that person who while I had information and I maybe saw other people like yourself who were making these choices consistently enough to change what their life looked like and the reactions or the outcomes that they created there was still a part of me that was like I don’t know maybe different like you know maybe it’s just not meant for me so that resistance was

(26:51) still and is still present in moments so having the compassionate awareness of what’s beneath the surface if you will like I said earlier is is part of the story though again this is where it was so and continues to be so foundationally important for me to employ the body to engage the body to make sure that I’m building resources from my body not just from my the top down if you will because until I learn right how to create space until I learn how to begin to manage overwhelming emotions what happened for

(27:27) me and will happen for of us is we will find ourselves back in that old protective patterning because as stress builds right as our nervous system becomes more overwhelmed we will fall back into the old ways the F familiar ways in which we learn to cope or how we learn to be so compassion you know for me comes when I can see the fact that and I can give myself the opportunity to make a choice doesn’t mean that those choices will be easy and consistent in the beginning but even the possibility as I learn how to be more

(28:02) conscious to everything that’s happening behind the scenes right we can become really intimately aware of everything that’s creating those reactions the more we pay attention right the more I notice that you know my body begins to shift and change there Sensations that are happening and those are usually kind of coupled with certain interpretations or ideas or thoughts that are running through my mind or beliefs in that moment and then I can start to right see the possibility of difference right I can see space where I can begin to make

(28:34) choices to shift how my body is feeling I can begin to question some of the older narratives or interpretations that might not be as accurate or as beneficial for me in that moment and then I can begin to make those new choices but I do believe that with awareness I should say comes compassion because as we see what’s driving our behaviors a lot of us can relieve oursel of the shame right that this is just who I am I’m not a good person because I do these hurtful things to other people and we can relieve oursel of the impossibility of

(29:07) change again with this idea that I can’t change right because the world impacts me as soon as I see the very active role that I I’m playing and creating the world around me from the way my body is interpreting it to the way my mind is interpreting it to then what I’ve habitually learned to do then I can start to create that beautiful space that you’re describing so every woman knows that one of the fastest ways to amplify the pleasure that already exists in your body is to get into a luxurious bath but what if

(29:41) you could program the water with the wisdom and intelligence of flowers while also infusing the space with the sensuality of the most unique Aromas available Lotus way bath salts are a feminine ritual that drops me into my body in minutes it’s the power of some of your favorite flower essences delivered in a new way so head to lotus.

(30:06) com and use the code kelly5 for 15% off the link is in show notes for you the resistance as you call it like the energy that is stacked against change right is there for a reason and serves us right until we are actually ready and I actually don’t ask many people this question but for whatever reason I feel like you might have some insights because for many many years I have been paying close attention to Readiness because I’ve changed many many times I’ve witnessed thousands of people radically changed their story and I want to know like what is the fulcrum like

(30:42) what is the point the Tipping Point like why is it that you can have the information you can have the awareness you can even have the models in front of you the inspiration but you don’t actually take steps in the direction of change until you’re ready to do so and I I wonder if you any like observations in your own life or in those that you’ve worked with about like what is that Readiness like you know why is it that we change when we do and you know what is it to just stay stuck in your like is that even a problem like maybe

(31:15) it’s actually totally fine and then when you’re ready for a different story you kind of pop over and try on a new identity and you ready somatically to hold that because the prospect of of having done it wrong or bad before doesn’t really scare you right as much as the invitation to to try on something new and exciting but do you have any observations about like what makes somebody ready to work with I mean you’ve written multiple books like you you think information obviously matters right you share information every day on

(31:48) your platforms and you know that there are more ingredients to change than just the information so I wonder if you think it is a somatic process if you think there is like a community element right like you need people like you said around you normalizing this so that you can begin to ripen what do you think makes us ready to take that responsibility because otherwise it can be such a burden right to entertain this notion that like you know I’m struggling and I’m responsible like I’ve been told I’m a victim shamer right so that’s one

(32:20) of the the many lovely points of feedback I’ve been given over the years is that I’m a I’m shaming victims and I can see that right I can see how I can feel like you know pointing in a Direction that’s exquisitly uncomfortable when all you want is is a rescuer a savior and and somebody’s here saying like you got you you know so what do you think about readiness really great question and I think Readiness is something that is is more sematic I think sometimes it is the Catalyst right so let me just explain I think Readiness comes from within right

(32:52) it’s a feeling of usually Dee rooted suffering where we have this inclination or Instinct instinctive maybe even idea thought hope maybe even right that I can’t take this right this is pretty bad things need to change I think that that is for me kind of the pivotal shift where we Maybe Might Be Inspired whether it’s looking for information looking for support telling someone how the suffering that we’re in but I do believe it comes from inside I do think that there can be different Catalyst some people right meet that feeling of

(33:30) Readiness of suffering of oh gosh like something has to change something has to give because of something outside that shifted or changed right a relationship might have ended a death a loss something happened outside but again I think and I didn’t necessarily fall into that category which for me was like for me that suffering was I can’t imagine continuing to live a life where I’m spending so much time fantasizing about leaving my life because I’m so exhausted I’m so drained I’m getting so resentful of the world around me that I think is

(34:02) requiring so much of me even in reality I was the person requiring so much of myself but ultimately again I think it has to be something inside of us and I think it it begins in a in a suffering place it begins in pain and then I think the natural step is some of us right seek information some of us seek support some of us are greatly benefited if we hear and are exposed to other people on a similar Journey or giving information that can be of benefit but I think internally is where we feel inspired to become ready to change and I think this

(34:36) just even thinking in the context of my new book on relationships I think this is can be a really frustrating component or aspect of relationship because a lot of us especially if we’re on our journey if we’re creating change in our own life if we’re as we’re continuing to struggle in our relationships as many of us are and or as we have a different vantage point we see our loved ones suffering we see the patterns that are creating their own suffering and we want to help them create the change that we think can not

(35:00) only benefit them but likely will benefit us in our relationship with them so what do we want to do we want to give them all of our good information we want to demand they change some of us even want to give an ultimatum that they have to change or else our relationship with them will change and again the reality of it is it will need to be that other individual’s right Readiness internal feeling of desire to even you know entertain the possibility of change it is not something that we can hope or wish for or create in someone else I

(35:33) mean we can hope and wish for it but ultimately it would be you know supporting them in their journey and I don’t think it’s the the way the trajectory many of us take right we see someone we see from a different vantage point someone else is suffering I think this applies a lot in our relationships with our family members right we see clearly the same patterning the same environment that create maybe what we’re working on ourself and then we want someone else to become ready at a time time when they’re not necessarily ready

(36:00) though I think again I do think it comes from inside of us and it usually begins when life has become intolerable that we do find ourselves seeking support whether it’s information or supportive practices to even entertain the possibility that we could feel differently totally right so we’re talking about like how does this locus of control shift from the outside to the inside because the patterns that we typ get into not only in in health but in relationships are externally focused right so you alluded to this so if I’m

(36:36) struggling in a romantic relationship then I’m going to potentially focus on my partner’s behavior on you know his or her you know shortcomings and what it is that needs to change out there in order for me to finally be okay and of course I don’t have control over that so there I am resting into that same familiar powerlessness of my childhood of every you know hierarchical system and non-consensual experience of domination that’s ever existed in human history so there I am again in the victim Consciousness field so you know I call

(37:10) it staying in your lane but you have elaborated your work into the realm of relationships and the messages seems to me the same about the control and power that you have to change the connection and love that’s available and it’s like the most annoying message come on like on some level right it’s like it’s like you know like just even the the title of your book is so perfect and so annoying and that’s like especially like you know several years as like a single woman doing this work of you know sourcing from within me and creating the

(37:50) conditions for me to access that which I imagined would only come through the Romantic diad it’s like I didn’t want go on this journey so I imagine that most of us who find ourselves reading your book accessing this message it’s like we don’t even want to be here like we don’t even really want to be you know learning how to meet our own needs because it’s still so delicious a fantasy to imagine that somebody else might just figure it out right like read our mind read our system and just magically deliver okay

(38:20) so like is there sort of like a ready example that you have of like how it looks in relationship to do this work like how does it look to meet your own needs to be the change you’re looking for to offer yourself what you imagine could potentially only come from this person who happens to be here so like why don’t they just figure out how to give it to me right so and the plot twist is that until and if you have this self- relational skill you wouldn’t be able to receive it anyway right so even if it were there you wouldn’t probably

(38:53) recognize it so I wonder if you could depict for us you know kind of how does it look because you’re you’re a very practical gal you know and you live this and and you you share examples of like what this looks like in real life so yeah in terms of relationships like what would this work you know sort of play out as yeah and I think back even in in my own journey in my own past through in my own relationships is you know being and then again normalizing for the large majority of us who do have that hope of someone right rescuing us being the be

(39:23) all and all that can meet all of my needs in any given moment and I I do think that’s a artifact of our at one time which was a very developmentally appropriate way to think right in childhood where we did have and we were completely dependent on someone else whose job was to near be a mind reader in the form of to attune to our non-verbal signals right to try and figure out what it is that we wanted and need it and then so that over time we could learn how to attune to oursel and I think what we’re dealing with now as

(39:52) an epidemic of adults who didn’t have that type of Attunement so when asked or even propositioned with this idea as I know I’m often the bearer of very annoying feedback and news you know it’s like well no I don’t want to I don’t know how what do you mean I’m supposed to do this isn’t this the point of being in a relationship and again I I want to continue to normalize all of those belief systems because it comes from very real developmental Place one in which many of us still are locked in and of course this isn’t me as I’m

(40:25) describing myself included right I’m not saying that we’re you know immature in a negative way it’s just we are not developed our emotional systems in a way that can allow oursel to be in attuned individual both to ourselves as an individual and to others so even for me you know I think of very early on in my relationships and right discovering all of the ways in which I relied on someone outside of me to make myself feel whatever it was to feel grounded to feel connected to feel better if I felt bad right to whatever it was to feel

(41:00) something I even saw in my kind of awareness stage where I just was really an observer let me go out and see all of these patterned ways that I’m functioning in my daily life and in my relationship life and I saw even outside of relationships all of these ways throughout my day I relied on external markers from times of day that would determine when I was hungry to eat and feed my body to determine what type of food I would eat I was usually looking outside of myself well what do everyone else eating around me there was all of

(41:30) these micro moments where I didn’t attune to myself to determine from every anything from what my body needed from nutrition to rest or movement in a given moment right I was the person if anyone if everyone around me was doing work or working out I better be working out or doing work too because I don’t want to be the person who’s not doing it even if my body or my creativity right wasn’t in that space to do it so what I then saw in my relationships and the opportunity I gave myself I almost took a a radical

(42:01) approach right so I was in a relationship I began very much with my partner Loi we were very much trauma bonded with all these you know disregulated patterns that both of us would cycle through from our own childhood so we were in a relationship and maintained one through both of us changing our Dynamics but what I noticed was again how Reliant I was on things people circumstances outside of myself to be a certain way so that I could feel a certain way and I wanted to shift that so I took a radical approach so I I described being

(42:32) in a relationship because here I did I had someone waking up with me alongside of me going along the Motions of everything I was doing more or less but instead of each and every moment I saw myself right going to Outsource to ask someone to look to someone else for whatever it was from determining what how to physically care for myself in that moment to determining emotionally what I wanted or what I needed and I just took time to just take full responsibility and what that looked like for me was to just focus on on me in

(43:06) those moments right before even going and asking or seeing what everyone else was doing right can I take radical ownership of my life of my physical body and of my emotional body can I learn how can I explore what it was that I want or what it is that my body needs or that I how do I feel soothed or comforted in these moments and so I spent a lot of time almost kind of going from one extreme of total Reliance to another extreme of total Independence if you will and then as I got clearer on me and had created Now new boundaries for my

(43:40) physical body for my emotional body then I was able to start to teach myself now because now I had to learn how to vulnerably ask for the actual support that now I’m discovering that I need and then to speak to your very wise Point not only how to ask how to receive it right cuz still have that conditioning inside of me that never never simply practiced it didn’t have the attuned caretaker I’m still discovering right how to co-regulate in a way that works for me and someone else so for me it really kind of meant going into a

(44:13) different extreme until I was able to find myself in a middle to be able then to receive and give the support that I want and need in a relationship but first I needed to create space or boundaries for myself to explore and of course along the way I was very much in active communication so those of us that are in Partnerships you know I think the more we can communicate with those around us especially as we’re going to start to exhibit new behaviors or make new choices it can be very helpful to kind of tell those around us who are

(44:43) maybe wanting to support us what we want or what we need even if it’s as I once did right I just need some space to figure out what it is that I want or what I what it is that I need right now but again for me it took taking full ownership of myself in more what could have felt like a more radical way then I was able to kind of loosen my boundary or become a little more flexible and in doing that what I was doing behind the scenes is I was creating more self-confidence I was resourcing my body I was resourcing my nervous system so

(45:16) that then when I got to that step of now learning how to truly give and receive support or co-regulate with another person right then I was able to I was much more grounded and resourced and able to do that I’ve experienced the same exact trajectory and I I think again it’s archetypal because you know when you have that other focus and the Pendulum is there and again for very valid and good reasons that strategy Works in most of our childhood conditions right and the Pendulum swinging to self focus is a scary like it’s a scary transition

(45:52) because there’s so much loaded judgment around you’re selfish your self-absorbed you know you express you know that you need time and space or you know put boundaries forth and it feels like it could in invoke so many of these judgments and all the risks associated with those judgments but only then can you begin to like allow the pendulum to come to rest in the connected space right like you soften and mature those boundaries that’re no longer as necessary because you can attune to yourself and you don’t have to have

(46:23) rigid rules you can see what the situation is asking of you but I always have found relationally like this accusation of like you know you’re you’re so selfish and especially in like a culture that fetishizes the toxic narcissist right you’re you’re so selfish what that person is ultimately reflecting is like pay more attention to me you’re paying too much attention to you right so they’re like exhibiting the exact mirror of that selfishness and and a lot of the self-inquiry self exploration self- relation that I know

(46:55) you are an advocate for too many reads as also because I’ve gotten this feedback it reads as self-absorption and I think right like you would agree that that phase maturationally is an essential Reclamation from the codependent other focused I’ll give to get patterns that we find ourselves in I even think I intuitively I think somewhow brought up the developmental trajectory because absolutely I mean we think of even those earliest stages of toddlerhood right other people like those of us who have kids like kids

(47:26) there is no person right it is this kind of full it’s about me developmental stage which again at that time is completely appropriate we celebrate right toddlers as they’re beginning to have these boundaries as they want all of the focus on themselves as it is all about them in the home right that’s celebrate it because that’s a a developmental stage that we all need though the reality of it is absolutely as we do that into adulthood colored by all of our cultural belief systems I myself have heard very similar feedback

(47:58) especially so one of the biggest spaces I’ve created early on in my own Journey was space between myself and my family of origin simply put I cut off contact I went no contact and again there wasn’t anything big or egregious or abusive that was necessarily happening in my home so I have all of this cultural conditioning as well rounded into me coming from an Italian American Heritage where I was taught how family is everything even to this day I can see in my in my dad right the pain that I cause him because I’m a little bit still

(48:31) separate I still have a beautiful now connected relationship with the family that I’ve reconnected with though I I it doesn’t look in that am mesed codependent way that at least traditionally it does in my family system so and in those moments those months I think it was the better part of almost 18 months when I was separate from and then as I started to speak very publicly about that aspect of my journey I heard very regularly consistently everything from how I was urging other people I’m a family Ruiner I tell people

(49:02) to to break up families and and everything in between and how selfish and I I would be lying if I didn’t if I said that there wasn’t the voice inside of me that worried and agreed that was like oh gosh Nicole you are so I mean it took me until that moment in time whatever it was I think it was that July a couple years ago now several years ago now where I finally sent what was an email to tell them lay down because I didn’t trust myself to communicate the boundary that I wanted and that I need it though it had occurred to me multiple

(49:34) times that I needed that level of space before that July it had started to occur to me that I didn’t really want to even continue to live in the Northeast where my family lived I wanted and I was being called out west but all of these moments of Separation I convinced myself out of out of fear and concern for how it would be for my family so so for me I was you know what I thought I was being selfless by worrying about them meanwhile I was accumulating all of this resentment I was continuing to play this archetypal

(50:08) role so quite honestly I wasn’t being my authentic self with them at all and then I was wondering why our relationships didn’t feel authentic or connected or deep and why at the same time I was continuing to feel exhausted drained and growing in resentment for them right and it took me until that point again radically taking responsibility not even requiring or or asking them to change at all when I saw the possibility of me taking that empowered stance of okay let me go take this radical space that I need to create the space that I need to

(50:43) begin to explore myself because I didn’t trust my ability to create that type of boundary without kind of giving myself that degree of space that no contact would and still to this day so on the other side of it 18 months later having reconnected both inside and outside of family therapy having seen many different shifts and changes in their Dynamic separate from me in my Dynamic with them and honestly seeing a lot of things that are somewhat similar what is now different is me and my level of confidence to continue to maintain the

(51:17) boundaries that allow me to show up within the relationships in my family more authentically and as a byproduct I now not only feel much more seen within those relationships I feel much more accepted and supported even if I’m not doing as you know they would like me to do and I feel much more deeply than connected and authentic with them when I’m in relationship with them so yeah I think selfishness is one of the is is a really it’s a it’s a tough thing because some of us are so conditioned with beliefs you know that kind of expand

(51:51) even the definition of what it is and what it means to be selfish where we end up putting every you know gesture of self-care in this category and then we really do cause ourself really deep rooted suffering even as we’re I think making shifts and changes that will Empower oursel because we have this deep root of belief that what we’re doing is wrong is bad is shameful again some of us then have the relationships that are reflecting that belief and then before we know it some of us are right back in those acts of service to maintain the

(52:22) connections that we think we desperately need yeah I have very similar trajectory also Italian American and for me it was 5 years actually so you were on the accelerated track of 18 months and you know I don’t know how unrelatable it is when we think about any kind of you know trauma informed addiction everybody understands that there’s an abstinence window sometimes that abstinence window is forever but like at least there is a period where you have an opportunity to find yourself you take the booze out of

(52:55) your house you know you no longer go to the Casino like what you you know block the porn websites whatever it is and you you remove yourself from the trauma field of all of those familiar triggers so that you can Orient to who the hell you are like this self- relational Journey for many of us begins in our 30s I mean you know I see my daughters as teenagers and and I I really feel very hopeful you know for for these nonlinear shifts that can happen generationally that don’t require anybody you know reading any books or taking any

(53:27) self-development courses to just maintain that self- connection and that inner navigation but nonetheless for the rest of us there is a journey you know that begins with that I call it the big  no but it begins with that rupture you know and it’s it’s something you alchemize the most beautiful thing about this work and I know you’ll agree is like you don’t need to involve anyone else like yes family therapy I’ve also you know been greatly served by family therapy and in the end I did the damn thing for myself and I have found that I

(54:00) live in a world of people who are somehow different even though they haven’t done the things I might have you know thought were essential for them to do they they weren’t involved and when you know when I change these Dynamics change and it’s actually delightful because you don’t have to coerce you know as a wife as a mother you know as a daughter you don’t have to coers anyone else’s you know optin to your worldview your spiritual perspective you just can focus on how you can serve yourself so you know I’d love for you to to give you

(54:32) know just sort of like an overview of what in your latest book people can access relationally and maybe I was thinking like what’s like a fun interesting example of like a habit you used to have in your relationships you know that that now has just softened like now it just kind of is different now it doesn’t really exist and I know you know that you also are an observer of like all of these Dynamics and patterns and and archetypes so you can help people identify like where it is that they fall into the rubric but I

(55:01) wonder if you have quick example because I I’m you know even interested in in that and then yeah can tell us what’s in these Pages absolutely so I think you know for me I just have endless endless moments I want to speak to both sides of it of old habitual reactions that are still very present I see those in moments where I’m not navigating my stress well where stress is you know High where I have a lot on my mind lot to do where I’m not you know taking care of my body particularly usually where I’m putting work before me in the

(55:34) mornings um and usually somewhere therea I feel agitation and what I see in my relationships is that old patterning of kind of pushing people away yet at the same time kind of expecting a closeness or a connection I of always think of myself as holding my hand in front of me with daggers you know and saying like why aren’t you coming and hugging me and right seeing even in real time all of those moments where if I’m being really honest I’m I’m not a acting or showing that I need a hug Andor I’m I’m making it really difficult and the environment

(56:07) maybe not even safe for the person to come hug me so of course right I’m not going to get the outcome that I want but of course right I’m able to see all of the role in which I’m playing in terms of creating that lack of connection that I’m actually looking for and I think the greatest spaces that I continue to see change for me sustain change is just my general ability to be different and separate from those I’m in relationship with to have a different want or need in the moment to want to spend my day differently to you know want to to need

(56:39) to travel or to do something differently to be inspired on a different creative project and to feel not only safe to express what it is that I want or need in any given moment but to still allow myself to feel connected to others even when I’m taking physical space or even if I’m in a moment where I’m emotionally maybe turned Inward and I’m just sharing that on the heels of after promoting this book pretty vigorously for several months on the other side of it I think I felt what a lot of us feel right an emotional exhaustion an emotional

(57:12) hangover if you will and what I noticed is I didn’t really want to I didn’t really want to socialize I didn’t really have much to say even with my partners with whom I Live friends that I you know would come in and visit like I I found myself very honestly you know sharing just I’m kind of feeling like not really up to being out and socializing and there was a old version of me that you know wouldn’t have allowed myself to be okay with being the person who was initiating for lack of a better word a form of disconnection right of space

(57:42) taking physical or emotional in a relationship so I continue to celebrate those moments where I’m able to not only tolerate different distances in my relationship whether it’s physical distances where we’re doing two separate things or emotional dist let alone where I’m now able to celebrate right acknowledging when I have that shifting and changing need because I’ve I’m learning you know myself as an energetic creature and while I spend a lot of time like I described earlier in our conversation around a lot of people

(58:14) right I’ve come to realize how different environments how different social settings how different even just seasons of my own emotional life shift and make it so that out and people feel now much more energetically overwhelming to me so I’m able to attune to my own kind of Seasons if you will in terms of what I want what I need emotionally in terms of my own need for Solitude or for space and all of the while not holding myself accountable or responsible to just be tending to how those around me or are taking or receiving my needs for space

(58:52) and so I talk of course a lot as I often do I share a lot of my own relationship ship journey in this new book how to be the love you seek I also share a lot of the Practical of course it’s very holistically based a lot of nervous system awareness and nervous system regulatory work not only for ourselves as individuals which is definitely the foundation though it is a relationship book of course the first relationship that we’re rebuilding is the relationship with our self and then of course I give tools and practices to

(59:22) begin to co-regulate with another to begin to attune to other individuals and their nervous system cues that and messages that they’re sending us that ultimately we can create more authentic relationships because again I think the large majority of us even those of us that are in relationship even those of us that are well on our journey of healing or of reclamation if you will still I think have to some extent the Deep like the loneliness right the feeling of otherness the lack of connection that true belonging can give

(59:56) us again because I think it just dates back to patterns and traumas that for many of us have just been passed through generations though you know even hearing of of your children and just thinking of future Generations I’m so hopeful because I do see all of this awareness translating into action I do see how kind of it’s spanning out the ripples of change in a very beautiful way and I’m I’m very hopeful for what will continue to come as more and more of us are having these conversations and creating this change in our own lives you’re such

(1:00:31) a huge huge part of this zeist and I think that if we you know you and I in our respective Specialties like if we were to have remained in the realm of mind-based interventions right I mean there’s no one more interested in that than me I mean I think it’s absolutely fascinating these psychological reframes like how they can Jailbreak you in a moment but integrating that change into Evolution into expansion into maturation is a body-based experience right so to have the capacity to communicate what it is that you need

(1:01:08) the vulnerability that you have to hold the shame you know you must visit with in order to ask for what you want knowing that you can’t control whether it will be delivered whether you’ll be made fun of for asking for it you know that is it’s a body based experience and bringing that conversation into the room actually gives us Like a Prayer of having healthy relationships because otherwise we’re memorizing scripts you know we are easily taking the bait of imagining that our partners need to do differently the moment we have an

(1:01:41) intolerable you know emotion in our own bodies and I often say I’m sure you would agree that like a safe world for me would be where everybody is in touch with what they want and knows how to ask for it right because it’s the unsafe world of our childhoods where everything was manipulation and coercion and these covert exchanges that nobody was actually talking about were going on right like you go to your room because I can’t tolerate the feeling in my body like no Mom ever said that and that’s actually what was happening like the

(1:02:12) subtitles beneath the screen so I’m I’m so grateful for you know the ways that you are weaving these domains for us to make material use of in our lives like lasting actual impact and I also know that you bring people together to do this work in community and I think that permission field and that expansion in group work is a part of how right like you quiet the dimensions that say this isn’t worth it this is too dangerous like what you were up to is fine and just focus on the problems you can actually fix so yeah I’d love for you to

(1:02:48) speak a little bit just about what you’ve seen is possible in groups that are beginning to orient around this philosophy of personal responsibility and choice and a commitment to self- intimacy I want to go back too because I think there could be such a quiet confidence that we gain right when we can be in that embodied space of empowerment or of self-power so even like you’re saying right being totally honest if we have this beautiful world I love this idea too right I am endorsing this future world view of the

(1:03:19) safest world is where we’re just honest right we’re able to say and be who we are because then what that provides the world around us our relationships included of course right is as I would call it information right information right if you’re hearing from someone if you’re seeing from someone authentically as it is the case for them and at the same time you’re in your embodied space of self trust and self-confidence connected to your intuition which will always guide you then somewhere along the way you will

(1:03:48) find your way into the relationship with this now informational space of this other person right that is aligned for you you will have the confidence to navigate that whether it’s continuing in the dynamic as it is whether it’s changing the dynamic empowering yourself of course to initiate that change or whether it’s ending the dynamic and separating or evolving into a different type of relationship and that’s a a confidence right we don’t have to put the direct or indirect manipulative pressure on someone else that even if

(1:04:17) we’re not saying it they can feel it and let’s be honest no adult likes to feel the pressure to be different we can just be and let everyone around us be and then use that as information to determine right what happens next for us or what’s aligned for us and so for me as I very publicly on the Instagram platform before a community that is now the self- Healer Circle existed I was gifted so going online and being the holistic psychologist that day whenever it was in 2018 that I decided to do that was just as much of a function or a played just

(1:04:54) as that choice played just as much as of a role Ro in my individual healing as it did in my desire what was becoming a passion for me to share this holistic model of Wellness with other people and what I mean when I say that is is as I was shifting and changing Dynamics right and being my own information in the world and taking others information I was seeing a lot of shifts in relationships objective ones where I was creating boundaries or distance from relationships that up until that point IID imagined I’d have forever so really

(1:05:26) simply I was starting to feel the loneliness a new loneliness a more authentically driven loneliness of around the desire to be around like-minded individuals who were you know on their own journey of healing who were had access to this information who like me were interested in talking like you about about this because I’m fascinated by it I want to talk about this all of the time with other individuals who want to as well so when I went online and I was gifted with I mean near Universal resonance from you know the very beginnings of me posting

(1:05:59) seeing individuals hitting like from around the world I was starting to feel a little less alone I was starting to get that you know affirmation confirmation of oh my gosh there are other people out there that are thinking about this that are doing the same work that are feeling similar to you and I started to feel how healing and at the same time read scientifically how healing community and relationships inherently are for us as individuals so learning right for me then that natural transition was let me experiment and explore is there a

(1:06:34) way that we can do this in a more structured way in a membership form right where I can deliver content and have support a support team around me to create the safe space for a community of individuals internationally to join together right and to learn how to be themselves and for me kind of coupling those two things remains to this day such an integral part of my own healing experience being within the community it’s not just that I you know create the content and quote unquote run the community if you will I am just as much

(1:07:07) an integrated member in that Community I just as excited when we have outside presenters come in for workshops to be in attendance because I too am gaining not only the resources and the tools I’m gaining the emotional healing that comes with being in a group of individuals and hearing and sharing your own personal narratives right so that for me was was lifechanging remains lifechanging individuals who joined the community of course joined from for many different reasons whether it’s from to access the resources right the actual content that

(1:07:40) we put out on different topics every month and the larger majority if I’m being honest are coming for the community to connect with others to be in this conversation to begin to explore and experiment in a new safe space how to be themselves in a new way and it’s just been such a inspirational and such a beautiful experience to continue to witness the community grow the individual members in the community grow and just to hear and you know witness all of the the Transformations that have have come almost pulling this all

(1:08:13) together right when we couple the Readiness with the resources right with the space and the access what true transformation that can happen when we feel empowered because all of that has come together amen yes and you know I just I’m feeling into belonging being the deepest need that we have you know many disperate paths to pursue and I relate to that and I you know honestly even feel that you know from a conversation like this you know having you as an ally I feel a little bit more like I belong in the world and I think

(1:08:50) so many of us who are on this hero or heroin’s Journey we will confront that core belief that is I should never have incarnated right like I don’t belong in this body like I don’t belong here what am I doing here and to allow that belief to rest in a safe Nest you know as it incubates like into you know this beautiful creature it’s what we came here for you know is that that journey I think so thank you thank you for doing this work thank you for standing with me thank you for bringing all of your beautiful flavors to this conversation

(1:09:28) and the disruption of you know what is this construct of mental illness mental health and mental wellness and how is it that the whole framing of it as mental is part of the you know part of the challenge and that we’re here to meet in broadening the conversation so thank you woman I’m so grateful and we’ll make sure to have you know your resources available in the show notes and I really look forward to the next time that our paths cross oh gosh same I cannot reflect more gratitude right back your way Kelly I mean truly you just you have

(1:10:03) been such a part of my journey from such an early time before I even had the opportunity to physically connect with you in real time so this has just been a true honor and I am continuing I’ve chill saying it I’m not going anywhere I’m continuing on this path I I believe so deeply in it i’ I’ve found what I thought was just a concept for a very long time in the form of a passion or a purpose I didn’t think again that I had that genetic ship I thought yeah I do things but I never really felt inspired in the way that I do now and just you

(1:10:32) know seeing people like yourself the work you’re putting out the communities you’re creating it’s just it’s so inspirational and it just like I said it brings me just such such hope for where we’re going and and I’m here for it thank you again I love it