(00:02) we have been duped by feminism sexual Liberation and anti-depressants we have been told that we are powerful and free now as women but we feel tired wired and bitter we’re mostly eating right exercising and meditating wrangling to-do lists and arranging playdates and yet there’s a haunting holess beneath the huge complaint what if I told you that there is a huge Storehouse a reservoir of energy inside of you that has not been tapped that you could feel light and pulsing excited and alive in ways that a wellness lifestyle
(00:49) cannot deliver that you could trust yourself that the world could feel safe and that unexpected and expected Delights could start to illuminate your path no coach therapist doctor or Guru required just you learning to get real present and attentive with you I feel like I’m here to matchmake your inner parts for the greatest love affair ever written I want to help you learn first where you’re buying eggs from the hardware store which is the source of all pain I want to help you master entering through the upset which is the
(01:27) only spiritual practice You’ll Ever Need and to get real comfortable putting on your villain Crown which is in my opinion the key to True power and then you’ll attune to your inner yes so you can live the life defined by the specific pleasure of who you are I am so excited to announce my latest book called The reclaimed woman which is available for pre-order now so if you head to the link in show notes you can learn more about bonuses events and companion offerings and I cannot wait to see your gorgeous face on the
(02:07) [Music] path I’m Dr Kelly Brogan you may know me as a New York Times bestselling author of a book with an exploding pill on the cover Renegade psychiatrist P dancer or honorary member of the disinformation doesn’t what can I say I’m a born provocator I’ve spent most of my recent life exposing deceptions connecting dots and discovering the secret places my inner victim is still waiting to be liberated and now I feel called to help you reclaim all of your parts your health your sexuality your power and your expression so that you can finally
(02:46) truly own yourself I want to ignite in you that inner knowing and the pulsing Vitality that lives beneath your disempowerment disconnection and resentment so that you can audaciously courageously and playfully alchemize your struggle into the specific pleasure of who you are this is Reclamation radio a soulfire production welcome back to Reclamation radio I am Dr Kelly Brogan and I am here with my new friend and Ally River roaring I have em met river through Betty Martin whom I interviewed for faces of fears femininity and one of the
(03:30) points of introduction was that we are on the same page it was a kind of like vague right reference and within within like one video of yours I knew what page Betty was referring to and it is from what we’ve been even discussing pre-recording this exquisitly rare Union of interests that spans from Health freedom and you know I’m going to put it in quotes because we’re going to talk talk about your activist Journey but activism and this awareness that sovereignty spans everything from a deep intellectual understanding of how we
(04:10) have been deceived all the way to the very personal inside job of reclaiming and reuniting with one’s Sexual Energy and erotic experience of day-to-day life let alone what it is to be an embodied woman and so to have this conversation with you as another woman who is attempting to have you know one high heel in each You Know Field it’s such a delight for me because it has been interestingly lonely I think you know or at least fragmenting for me to feel like I have to have my I quote unquote have to that I have to have my you know
(04:49) activist Health Freedom hat on and bodily sovereignty informed consent around medical interventions hat on or I can have my you know sensuality ual Reclamation exploration of manom relating and Des secreting you know all of these dimensions of me that have lived behind this extraordinary shame wall and to have this conversation with you where we can just go into all of it is it’s really really fun it’s an honor actually River so thank you for being here well you’re so welcome Kelly it’s truly my honor as you know I was your
(05:24) big fan way before the lockdowns and as you’ve decided to move into the world of sexuality have been in awe and really really really happy that we connected yeah I got Betty’s email I think you guys are more on the same page and I was just start I immediately started laughing I already knew who you were like yeah way more than you so funny that I love it yes and it it’s just a resonance right like there are yes you and I know and we’re going to talk about this that it’s not an information game right that it’s not
(05:59) about making Mak sure that people are exposed to the science to the you know history to the behind the scenes 411 it’s not about that it’s about something that connects all of these points of interest that we have that is psychospiritual it’s maturational and it’s a very very personal Journey so I would love to really start with your process you have walked from everything I’ve learned about you a classic heroin’s Journey right this this individuation process that began in your sort of defiant energy rebellious energy
(06:35) as a trial lawyer and lobbyist and as I listened to your story I just saw the exact frames that I have been through of course as somebody who chose a very similar kind of career right as a doctor there’s a c my mentor would say only sympathetic dominance become you know doctors and lawyers there’s a typ aess there’s a a righteousness there’s an energy of I think fear-driven control and the illusion that you can get to this place where you’re safe because you know how it works and you know how to fight the fight right in my case whether
(07:11) it was against illness and ultimately the body in your case whether it’s against Injustice that illusion was very alive and then there was something that rattled your cage and invited you into the very uncomfortable space of re-evaluating this entire identity that you had built built up so I’d love for you to just share how the hell you have gone from you know attorney to sexologist and the work that you do today thank you Kelly well I am an indigenous and European mix of a human and my grandfather came over
(07:48) undocumented into the United States from Central America just like all of our early immigrants in the US did and so I came from a line there and was the first in my family line to graduate from college so I felt like was totally encouraged you know to go toward college and go toward the career that would pay well and learn and be very brainy so I did it and I just followed that brainy move my mother was uh had mental illness during the time I was growing up but really didn’t have a lot of emotion connection or connection I had really no
(08:26) connection to my body I would say and went into the law became a first I got a Philosophy degree in undergrad at UT University of Texas because I just wanted to know all the ideas in the whole world and then after I got my degree I went to law school because I realized well I could get a Philosophy degree and where’s this leading writing books that are going to sit on a shelf and get Dusty because I saw all my teachers were just having these Dusty books written that meant nothing to anyone so I wanted to go somewhere where
(08:58) our ideas could be put into place and force people to do them that was the old me okay and so went to law school and became a trial attorney and a lobbyist with my own office for over 20 years and so I was my own boss and I took on family law cases as a specialty we ended up specializing in high conflict divorce and custody cases so that was like really an intense way of being a trial attorney and in addition to that I also would in my first in my spare time work with some great friends of mine who we were great friends for years and we
(09:34) would we fought the system and so we developed ways of first fighting at City Hall for police accountability which led to me being a finalist for the Austin Police monitor later on I think I was a token for the community and then went into realizing the police were actually governed by state law and we went over to the state legislature and became very powerful there we created a large team we started getting grants from other from I’ll be honest George Soros among others and luckily we were effective and we reduced the prison population
(10:12) significantly in Texas when we went in there they were going to build three more prison units on the 120 we have and when we now even now theyve closed units um because we started working on getting nonviolent offenders out of prison and I want to reflect on what you said I now know I was taught I see everything that I just described to you including my whole career as that I was a tool for the patriarchy that whole time do you know that I got an undergrad degree in philosophy and the only people they showed me were white male ideas if you
(10:49) can like if for for me now to realize that I got a fouryear degree and I asked to study every idea in the world and they let me out with that degree and they only gave me white mail ideas I just like I’m I’m gassed at that now you know and then of course the law and so what I want to say about that is rules don’t keep us safe just like in the doctor realm you know thinking that I know how every cell connects to every cell is not the way to safety and I’m now really anti- rules I’m an anti- ruite because I now really understand
(11:26) that belonging keeps us safe and connecting with one another in a human human level that’s the opposite of the rules and the opposite of the jail cells well I was with a man I lived with for years and we were at the lake house we had a lake house in a downtown house and we were out there and I said you know we’ve been arguing over some really small things lately like bickering over little things but like constantly I really want to know are you in this for the long term like I’m in it I’m in this for the longterm with you and I want to
(12:00) resolve whatever’s Happening Here Kelly he was frozen he just looked at me it was one of the longest silences and I was like oh you’re not in it like I am and really he was basically silent and I grabbed my I didn’t have any skills to communicate and I grabbed my beautiful dog and got in the car and went to the downtown house and do you know that relationship broke up he wouldn’t answer my calls after that day and we ended up talking for maybe an hour to split our property and other than that I have never talked to him
(12:36) again and I realized in that pit I fell into that relationship was nothing I was that was nothing there it was nothing at all what’s going on here and I could hear his voice echoing in my head you work too much you work too much because I was like a 247 political fighter and I just realized I don’t want to die with a gravestone that says you worked a lot like even if I pass more laws who the [ __ ] cares that’s stupid and I just realized I’ve got to figure something out that I do want to die for took a year of being quiet I just I
(13:16) decided first I decided I’m not going to do anything meaningless anymore and I quit things one at a time I was on nonprofit boards I was part of different political organizations I quit quit quit I sat in my living room after work every day like this world is meaningless until I was sitting there one day and I remembered a sexual fantasy and I felt this distinct tingling in my in my torso right in the bottom of my torso in a line I’m like okay this has to mean something like in a meaningless world this strong tingle
(13:50) has to mean something and I actually was a bondage related fantasy that I’ve had as a core erotic theme my whole life life and I went to the computer I typed in Austin BDSM I still don’t know why I really even knew that acronym but all of a sudden this was before FetLife but all of a sudden all of this World opened up on the computer sharing with me that there’s communities that is there’s a king Community out there and they’re getting together and there are reams of protocols and ethical ways they maneuver
(14:26) and there are tons of agreements and safety procedures and I was just like whoa all my body lit up like this can’t be possible are there really people doing this I just couldn’t believe how exciting it was in my body H from that moment on I followed my body and I’m there today and that was 17 years ago what I did is launch into a sexual Journey which led me very quickly to wonder what else is going on in this town I don’t know about so I decided to find every subculture in Austin Texas which is a city I love and I found a
(15:04) spiritual Community also the toltech I studied with Heather Ash Amara and Raven and became a toltech and so my spiritual and sexual Journeys literally grew together completely together and as I played hard and found my own sexuality I was also finding my spirituality together the exact same time and after five years years of toltech work very hard really hardcore work on myself you know Excavating the old patterns in toltech they teach us don’t serve until you’re ready to serve don’t just come out of the box serving you need to do
(15:44) first work on yourself until there’s a calling and five years into my process I sat up from a ritual we were in I just I remember bolt up set bolt upright like oh my God I’m here to be a sexual healer it was so beautiful from that day on I started training myself I’ve been to every workshop and everything in I could find in the United States and then also working on how am I going to shut this law office down and finally about nine years ago when we closed the office and I became a I went from es choire to escort
(16:22) Kelly and I had a hell of a lot more fun and I made no less money and now I become a trainer and now I teach workshops and I am still a sex worker now as a surrogate partner which I’d love to describe if you feel like it yes now I do training now I feel like I am a trainer of trainers within the world of sexual sovereignty thanks for hearing my story it’s I mean it’s incredible because I I’m just I’m so interested as I know you are in polarities and in the energetic alchemy that was required for you to and for me
(17:00) you know because our stories are so similar to well other than you know the professional nature of your work which just it’s interesting to me it’s compelling I’m making a study of so much of what you are living right so I I absolutely want to hear more about what your work looks like actually what does it look like right like what actually happens in the room however you know I just think about the realm of controversy right that that you were in that spanned from your romantic relationship to your professional
(17:30) Mission and vocation and what it is to inhabit the realm of controversy especially as a woman you know like when I took a good look at my activism what I found years ago and this was the beginning of the pandemic I I began this work I guess intuitively I I was inspired to look at my role you know in that which I was condemning just because it feels better at a certain point as I know you know to just take responsibility it means you still have power right so when I when I looked at my role I found you know there’s so many
(18:05) ways in which I am insisting that I know how things should be and I am asserting my will in a very immature masculine way on reality right I am fighting with what is and insisting it be different now I call that buying eggs from the hardware store but it took a while for me to see the fear and specifically at least in my case the fear of men that was beneath my activism like this very Primal childlike fear that I would be punished to the point of extermination right by the father you know by the bad father and I
(18:46) think this is archetypal for women you know to know how to work with that biological reality that a man could put his hands on my neck and you know snuff me out in a second that is a biological reality that women walk this planing with you know this white noise of fear and that was in so many ways mitigated by this I think defiant energy of you’re not g to get me right like I’m gonna show you I mean I just I I look at so my book with an exploding pill on the cover through that lens now and like you said it’s not that there isn’t quote unquote
(19:27) good that can emerge from that space it there’s a role for that in the spectrum of you know energetic forces however where you’ve moved to now I imagine you would describe as far more aligned with your native feminine Essence right I imagine that you look back on who you were and you feel like that was a stage you had to move through in order to come home to yourself so I would I would love to hear more about what that looks like not only in your lived experience in your body on a Wednesday but also you know how you
(20:07) serve and and who you train and what you know most I never heard the term surrogate used in this context so I imagine many people listening don’t have any idea you know what it is that you’re up to and I’d love for you to assume that we don’t know and give us a give us a tour awesome thanks Kelly yeah I love our similar Journeys so much so much so happy to know you yeah well I am I work as a surrogate partner now surrogate partner was developed it’s a modality that was developed by Masters and Johnson in the 60s and so there’s a TV
(20:44) show called Masters of Sex which is about Masters and Johnson a beautiful couple in the 60s who developed surrogate partner program among other things and they’re also responsible for developing What’s called the arousal curve or something like this the arousal something where yeah so when they developed surrogate partner they were also developing this idea that it’s kind of like they made first base second base Third Base home script it’s kind of like they made this thing where sex equals get aroused have foreplay rise up in
(21:23) energy and then the man will ejaculate and then everything will be over and everybody will go to sleep and be happy and they will also then get married and have a really successful marriage because they could do that together and so in the beginning sagate partner was what it still is today but we’ve developed it a lot so back then it was there are people who are going to sex therapists and I think it’s much more needed now people are going to sex therapist today and they’re talking about what they want to change in their
(21:55) lives but some of those people who are talking to the sex day therapists are not able to get out the door and make those changes in their life for some reason it could be social anxiety could be a physical disability and the beliefs built up around that it could be a neurod Divergence and the beliefs built up around that but for some reason they get stuck talking about it and so I come in as a surrogate partner and I sort of act like the touch partner or the relationship teacher and I teach intimate relationship from within the
(22:27) experience itself so unlike the talk therapist who really is schooled to not touch them or to be in any real relationship with the person I’m actually in a real relationship and I’m teaching from inside the relationship and so these days as a surrogate partner we’ve developed it out a lot and I’m now teaching emotional skills social skills conflict styles as well as touch and sexual aspects and of course we’re no longer I no longer teach the script I would actually you know the script is one of the problems we got so we kind of
(23:00) really switched up the Masters and Johnston’s Playbook on it but even now today a person is not really a surrogate partner unless they’re working with a triadic model which means there’s a client a surrogate partner and a psychotherapist and we’re all working together so after I see a client in the surate partner realm every single time I give a report to the psychotherapist and then they go see their psychotherapist and they then give a report to me about the kind of things that were coming up so the person can work through both they
(23:32) have a wraparound care and obviously as we’re opening the body which is what I do lots of memories lots of challenging emotions will come forward flooding forward all the different things that closed that body down will typically be Revisited as we take the journey back to opening that body back up as it was as a child so what are some of the complaints that a client would come to you for right because a lot of times we have a superficial concern right so it might even be a physical symptom or might be a recurring pattern in a relationship or
(24:09) we’re blaming our partner for whatever and at the root of it is this sexual shame this disembodiment this disconnection but people probably don’t often have that self-awareness right where they’re coming to you saying I my body is closed down or maybe they do I don’t know my body is closed down help me open it like what are they perceiving as the problem and what are you seeing as the way through typically oh that’s beautiful uh I usually work with men not always I have a woman client right now I’m happy to work with all genders but
(24:42) with men I will say that it’s usually perceived as a physical issue so they’re usually coming in saying erectile dysfunction or rapid ejaculation which is not being erect when you want to not releasing when you want to and that’s frequently the complaint or the thinking frequently I see men who feel like I can’t talk to a woman because if I do it will definitely lead to us having a scripted sexual act that I will fail at so therefore I will not leave my home to speak with anyone so I can prevent that from happening well isn’t that a great
(25:28) problem solving technique there and what I do really love sharing among so many other things I would love to share about boner shame a little bit because I’ve never heard any other human talk about it except one homemade YouTube from a girl in Detroit have everything I could find like that’s awesome but may I say a few words about B absolutely you have thank you I feel that there is no such thing as erectile dysfunction I don’t don’t use terms of uh diagnosis and dysfunction and Brokenness with people at all I don’t honor those words but I
(26:07) will say here for the purpose of expressing this that I don’t do it I believe erectile dysfunction is cultural dysfunction so what happens is for half of our population we don’t let them move their bodies naturally to me that’s like period it’s like that should speak for itself but we’re not even talking about this yet and so for half of the population in this in this culture we don’t let them move their bodies freely which means you cannot have a boner you cannot have it in public you cannot have it usually in your own home unless
(26:38) you’re by yourself even if there are children in the own home so there are these humans called men who have you know [ __ ] and so they aren’t allowed to move them and we now know that the body the mind and emotion are one so if I can’t move my body then I also can’t have certain emotions and I also can’t have certain thoughts basically so me I can go to the grocery store and be juicy turned on I can notice the breeze on the hair of my legs and get so excited and the hair of my arms I can notice the butterflies and
(27:15) just get turned on and be so aroused juicy all day long but no the men can’t do that by culture Shame by sexual shaming and then what that results in that really aggravates me is when we have this meme that men don’t have enough emotion and I get enraged Kelly I mean I’m like enraged by that and then the other meme is that men aren’t creative in bed I’m like well they can’t ever think about it they can’t be in that space except for like one% of their life when they’re in their bedroom or in their shower like that’s the only time
(27:56) we let them have sexual sovereignty and freedom over their own bodies talk about bodily autonomy and so then what I really feel is that all the men who have this they think they have this broken diagnosis but what it really is is like no 99% of the time you’re supposed to make sure this body part doesn’t move at all and then during the time sex is happening you’re supposed to have it rock hard the whole time until someone says it’s over until someone says it’s been hard long enough and then it’s supposed to go right back down into
(28:31) place never move again until called upon that’s cultural dysfunction that is broken like anything could be as broken as anything could be it’s so interest I I love this conversation and it’s it’s so much where I’ve come to in a lot of my exploration is to develop this like deep compassion for men and their plight and to take responsibility as a former feminist you know at least the way I described it in creating the condition for my unfulfillment you know by Men at Large right and and I believe that we have done this culturally and of course I can
(29:08) say to you that I believe it’s a deliberate agenda and that it’s been seated and engineered and the you know quote that of course is coming to me is that Krishna mury quote I often reference which is no sign of Health to be well adapted to a profoundly sick Society so these men who are functioning within you know the Paradigm that we have set up for them that curious right because there’s probably no reason they should I mean I I think of schooling right the roots of what you’re describing culturally are very deep I
(29:37) mean just think about a little boy right who who could be running around killing things you know like building things whatever developing masteries and instead he’s expected to sit his body still in a classroom listen to a woman all day long typically right a school teacher all day long tell him what’s what raise his hand when it’s time time to go peepe and poopy and never eat when he’s hungry I mean of course this is true for women too but little girls too but it is a very different level of offense and it’s a grotesque display of
(30:11) you know this specific and deliberate oppression of the masculine in society because you know a society that is controllable has no man at the helm right has men that are so confused and disempowered around their own predatory energy and I haven’t heard somebody describe what is so obvious when you say it I mean it’s so true how many women are out there talking about I mean including myself like how essential it is to be in your you know erotic energy all day long right and and to decouple the sex act from your vital force energy
(30:48) and to reclaim that and and what is what does that look like for men that’s that’s fascinating so it sounds like a lot of what you do when you meet with a man is first of all give him permission right to experience what it is that he’s experiencing normalize it and to eliminate that program that says something is actually wrong with me versus I am a symptom of something that is wrong with this sociocultural milu we have consented to right exactly so the first thing I let them know is wow your [ __ ] is awesome and smart because
(31:23) frequently they also tell me the situation they were in when it wouldn’t work the way they wanted and I’m like nobody’s body would work in that situation that was a really terrible environment for your clock to be working you didn’t set that up you did not learn how to create the environment where your body wants to come out and play and then and half the time you know they’re on these pills potions pumps you know all there are there’s a billion doll industry out there just for that it’s just shocking but I will say also when
(31:55) they come in we work on conflict styles and welcoming conflict and we do all these other things but you know what I really Center on is the wheel of consent with them and so we go straight into the because the wheel of consent allows me to feel my body now and listen to my body and then gift one another from a listening of the body perspective so we go straight into that and develop that to its fullest inside the surrogate partner container I’m going to pause here for a quick second if you are into the topic of
(32:34) manwoman relating polarity and what the Reclamation of EOS has to do with holistic health then I invite you to check out and download my free ebook on the subject at the link below and to also check out a Blog I wrote that goes deeper into the subject of BDSM some of the science supporting it and why these reframes and tools may be exactly what the world needs to move out of confusion resentment and victimhood and into personal empowerment and pleasure hope that helps so this is of course what connected us this is Betty Martin’s work
(33:09) and when I learned about this from my coach Whitney one of the first things that I did was teach it to my daughters because I thought if I had understood this early in my embodied life every single relationship that I had with a partner would have been different and my relationship to my own sensuality and embodiment would have been different and I would have had a framework within which to interact with every single human you know that I talk to and so I would love for you to elaborate on it because this framework is game-changing
(33:47) and the reason why is because it brings I think Consciousness and intentionality to that which would otherwise keep us arrested in like disempowerment when it comes to the complimentarity of energies right so you know I’m going to give you the mic because I’m not an expert in this I’m just fascinated by it but somebody who is touching somebody else often imagines that something’s going on that is not happening for the other person and so we have performative sex acts where neither person is fulfilled both think that
(34:19) they’re giving to the other and no one is receiving no one’s having an experience but this is true in all of life right where this caretaker woundology is driving the sense that we’re doing for others when in fact we’re taking right it’s the offer that has a covert ask I mean this the layers of this are so profound but to take it just into the basics of touch right the basics of one hand moving across a body is where you can see that we don’t know what we’re doing right there’s no actual consent there’s no actual awareness so I
(34:54) would love for you to you know share with us why for first of all you got into this work what what you like about it and how you bring it to clients to really revolutionize the role that they play in these consensual engagements wow thank you it was about 12 years ago when I walked into meet Betty Martin For the First Time Dr Betty Martin and she is the developer of the wheel of consent and I was transitioning from the attorney to this I knew my mission was to be a sexual healer in the world why I’m on Earth walking and so at that time
(35:31) I hadn’t quite started yet I was right on that cus because I started doing some sex work as a side hustle while I was still a trial attorney which was awesome I even had a judge client which was really funny but back then I Betty would only teach her method to other sex workers I don’t know if you knew she started that way Betty went from being a 30-year chiropractor with her own office in Seattle to being a sex worker herself realizing that loving touch much like the two of us realized the way I was schooled is not the answer
(36:10) loving touch is going to do more for people and so that’s where Betty went with herself and developed this as a sex worker so I also like to make sure people know this is sex worker creative material because so often we’re disappeared but I’ve met Betty Martin and I said look I’m a trial attorney but I’m really trying to quit I’m really trying to study at night to be a sex worker do you think I could get in your class she’s like all right you’re in and so that was thank the goddess in the beginning of my journey of being
(36:41) actually seeing clients because being with Betty I really felt like I was at the feet of Buddha and I really felt like I am watching something so profound be developed in this world and I get to be with the founder of it in person and so after that I followed her around and trained with her as much as I could many many times started assisting her and then the first time she trained people to train other people I took that training and now I’ve been training others for five years myself with her blessing and now we’ve built up a big
(37:14) Community here in Austin around the wheel of consent which I can talk about later what I want to tell you is wow Betty is a revolution because no one else is teaching that consent starts with the first consent skill is to notice the sensations of my body I mean I’ve never heard anyone else even start there but it is the first consent skill the first consent skill is to be able to notice the sensation in my body and so we use very beautiful gentle practices to start waking that sensation up so I can hear it and what I like to say about
(37:49) sensation in my body and embodiment is that up here I have 55 years of data noise talking from the external world that came into my head in my thinking mind so I have 55 years of imprints on my thinking mind that I get to operate from when I think but down here I have four billion years of wisdom in my body my body in every cell as you know in every cell of my body is the history of life on earth and the truth of our magic as human beings that we can access four billion years of wisdom it’s actually even not
(38:33) even complicated and it doesn’t even cost a penny because that’s of course why we don’t know about it in our culture so the truth is if I can learn because my body speaks to me all day long in a very simple language and that is that four billion years of wisdom speaking and that language is the physical Sensations in my body and if I can learn to hear those physical Sensations I literally learn to move through the world from my primordial wisdom I get to move through the world with purpose for the reason I’m here on
(39:10) Earth I don’t even have my brain doesn’t even have to know why I’m here on Earth that chatter becomes so surface level and irrelevant to my actual wisdom and what I can do so I can move through the world in my primordial wisdom in the bedroom and I can have sexual experiences that way which are unspeakably Blissful and amazing and I can also take that wisdom and move through the rest of life as you mentioned then we take in the wheel of consent we take that wisdom we learn how to hear it and then we learn how to gift
(39:45) one another and so I love what you said and I I can tell from the way you’re talking that you really get the wheel of consent in a way that a lot of other people don’t it’s kind of become known well known in the world to some extent but I would say at a surface level it’s known and most people see the diagram of the wheel of consent and then they feel like they know the wheel which is I always compare that to well it’s like seeing a road map of the Grand Canyon have you been to the Grand Canyon it’s not the same so the wheel of consent is
(40:19) actually a set of body experiences that we have with one another it’s not a road map although that’s a neat diagram the wheel of cons is a set of deep in experiences in our body and what we do in the wheel is we learn to change the words giving and receiving instead of being giving and receiving touch which most of the world is talking about like if I’m touching you I’m giving touch but we take that away in the wheel of consent and we say giving and receiving as a gifting so if I’m receiving I’m receiving the gift of this
(40:55) experience and if you’re receiv receiving you’re receiving the gift of the experience and we learn how to give and receive gifts of an experience in a really clean beautiful way I would love to tell a quick story about what illustrates what something you just said I like to tell this story Austin Texas is an awesome City and it’s so full of energy and we have a big university here University of Texas and so of course we have Sixth Street and we have huge party districts where frat and the sority girls go and hang out and everybody else
(41:30) at school and so I think and I was a I was a UT student I’m talking about myself like maybe a long time ago like 30 some years ago and so we’d be at the bars at night and everyone’s out at the bars and it’s a very there’s a it’s a beautiful city to fall in love in so everyone’s out at the bar at night let’s say that college kids are out at the bars and suddenly the 2 am lights flip on and suddenly everyone’s like oh I’ve got to find find someone to go home with right now this is my last second to do it you’re like oh what are you doing oh
(42:02) blah blah blah let’s go home together tonight all right so let’s say two young this is a stereotypical situation we have a young boy a young woman a young man and a young woman going home without knowing each other first very well without a lot of talking ahead of time and they’re running home to have a sexual Escapade and a lot of stuff happens there’s a lot of touching and sex happening and then they go home and then if the young woman gets on the phone to her friends the next morning do you think she would say she was giving
(42:35) gifts or receiving gifts what do you think she might say she probably well it depends on her age but imagine that she was giving giving my body I just gave this and I gave that and I let him have this and I let him do this and I let him go that far I said stop on this but I let everything else happen whatever that story is I was giving and the young man gets on the phone to his friends the next morning what do you think he’s saying to his friends I was either giving to her or receiving stuff from her he was giving it all night exactly
(43:06) yes baby he was like I was serving her so I did this for her that for her this for her and so what that tells us is typically in our culture I believe on purpose we are taught to give only so we just taught give give give and so we had two people give give giving to each other in a sexual ES and going home which is fine I mean like that’s okay I mean sometimes it tell 30y year marriage has happened totally it’s like sexual virtue signaling right yeah everyone’s all innocent and giving but the problem we have there is that what was missing
(43:46) that night all together desire it’s like no one named what they would really like to have and had it done no one asked for what they really wanted so what we have is whether it’s a one night stand or a 30-year marriage we can have truly a lifetime of interactions where desire isn’t involved in our sexual activity and that’s not how we were born to be that’s not sexual sovereignty and the wheel of consent allows us to open to that desire from inside my body and teaches us how to ask for what we want feeling our body knowing what I want
(44:27) from my body which is never the script there’s never been a time that I wanted first base second base Third Base home that’s impossible it’s totally overused it’s I don’t really believe any human actually just wants that over and over they might want it once but that’s not sex in my book that’s a a little script that people are jumping into over and over the actual sexual possibility to be in sovereignty is to hear my wisdom to learn how to ask for what I want from that place and also to learn how to set my limits of what I don’t want from that
(45:02) place so when my body says it’s done with something I just let someone know lovingly that’s my limit we’re done and we learn how to give differently and we learn how to receive differently it’s so profound I think for me a huge reveal was almost like these two prongs of desire as you’re saying right so once I get in touch with what I want which in my book requires and I’m sure in yours a lot of work right like years maybe Decades of work I mean that I have found you know I have this program vital mind reset that absent
(45:41) like a major lifestyle overhaul a reunion with your body like a dedication to self-care you can’t even feel those Sensations you’re talking about I mean it’s it’s literally in a white noise of bloating and joint pain and brain fog and right so so coming into to an intimate Dynamic with that inner channel is a journey it’s in and of itself however once you have a sense of what it is that your body is asking for it might look like oh I want someone you know to touch my nipple or it might look like I want to run my hands over his beard
(46:22) right so it can look like receiving quote unquote touch but it may also look like taking touch and I’ve been fascinated to the point of obsession with observing our disconnection from this what I would call dark feminine and masculine energies what is it to take touch the only place we’re really you know we have access to that and give ourselves permission is with our pets I mean I touched my cats whether they want the touch or not I’m doing it for myself because it feels good in my body to touch them so I take touch there but to
(47:01) take touch from another it requires that you own that that’s what you’re doing I mean how many men are like oh honey let me give you a massage and what they really want to do is take that woman’s body right but they’re gonna they’re GNA kind of faive in order to have the opportunity to maybe take and so clarifying when it is that you are touching another person’s body for your own pleasure when you are actually receiving from that touch it’s the organization of so much Shadow and shame driven relationship to desire that is
(47:37) only otherwise allowed to exist in the receiving of touch and it’s profound it’s a profound paradigm shift it really is the guy in your example who’s reaching out for the massage because he wants he wants to offer her a massage then he wants to gratify himself somehow that’s not a gift that’s actually not a gift and she feels that in her body oh she feels that mix of energies right yes I would ask your listeners have you ever felt that have you ever felt touched in some sexual context where you felt like what’s going on here this is about
(48:17) something that I don’t understand Dynamic is happening that who’s supposed to be doing what here also one of the you know really what Betty Martin teaches in the will of consent we spend some time on why don’t we ask for what we want and what would be some reasons you could think of that you wouldn’t ask for what you want especially this goes to the bedroom where it’s the toughest to ask right yeah the vulnerability is exquisite it’s Exquisite and this shame I mean you for a living work with this shame right this
(48:52) experience of internalized sexual shame again I think is essential to render a population controllable and most people don’t make that connection I know you do but this shame wall as I call it is one of the most essential gates to Traverse in order to make contact with the literally the navigational compass of your being right like you don’t know what you want you have no idea what you’re here to give what you’re here to experience what you’re here to take take until you can move through that shame but why is it so vulnerable to ask you
(49:33) know for what we want because we imagine there’s something wrong with it and because we’ve experienced punishment and consequences for the expression of our impulsive Desires in the past so it’s not random it’s not stupid it’s not weak it’s wise you know so how how do you like to go about interacting you know with that shame when people have that experience of like I know what I want now you know but asking for it feels impossible it great Point yeah because we look at why don’t we ask for what we want we go a little deeper into that
(50:10) which is you said the big thing sexual shame and then we also look at what do we do instead of asking and frequently there are a lot of answers to that from hinting to settling to offering it to them hope they’ll offer it back to numbing and distracting you know to berading ourselves that we shouldn’t want that there’s just all these wasted energies going on between not asking and then also doing other stuff instead to try of adapt which are all healthy Maneuvers to adapt to our culture which has beaten out of us asking for what we want so we
(50:53) teach directly how to ask for what I want you know and one of the sentence stems that is awesome is will you because even when we start asking my clients are always like would it be okay if you touched my nipple do you think you could and also maybe maybe touch my nipple it’s like well no we’re not doing that here we’re gonna use the thin and stem will you will you touch my nipple now and and also isn’t that sexier if you’re someone who’s being asked to do something I don’t if you’re like maybe do that I’m like I don’t even know what
(51:32) you want right now so we really work on the skills of will you and you know what the wheel of consent shows us is that asking for what I want is the most vulnerable thing I can do in the entire world why is that because another reason I might not not ask for what I want is because this may mean I lose my partner you know what I want is blah blah blah and I know that might risk us but that’s what I want and another way is looking at it is I might risk my entire tribe so this is a survival level vulnerability because it’s very easy to
(52:12) imagine I think for you or I how we could lose an entire tribe an entire community be blocked and censored Etc just because we stood for what we want and who we are and that is something that we have been in our I totally agree with you someone has done that on purpose to us and I am in the business of showing people again how to ask for what they want and another thing that you point out here and how do I know what I want because my body is going to give me that info it’s not from the ticker tape and Excel spreadsheet mental
(52:48) 55 years thing that’s not going to tell me the answer because what I want is from inside me and all of that data for 55 years that’s been shoved To Me is from outside of me yeah I’m never G to find what I want out there what I want is in here and all I need to do is learn how to hear that and then ask for that and it’s a vulnerable thing it’s a really big deal when people learn to do that super big and so therefore just asking is the most vulnerable thing it’s even again another step to now someone says yes I want to run my hand all the
(53:28) way down your body from your forehead all the way down to your toes really slowly someone says yes to that oh now it’s my turn to do this so reaching out and getting something that we want putting our motor skills in play plus our desire and reaching out and taking touch for me is almost 100% beaten out of our culture and I’m in the business of showing people again how to do that because we have to learn we must learn as a human being I believe as a human being I have a basic need to sometimes receive things for myself like sometimes
(54:07) I need care you sometimes I’m going to be broken down and need a hug you know a hot tea made for me you know cry on someone’s shoulder that’s a human need some point in my life to receive gifts for me from other people and the same way I have some point in my life I also need to be taking care of another and giving to them holding them in their time of need those are human needs so if my culture has beaten out of me the receiving of the gifts for me I’m trying to always be in a giving mode but because it’s a human need to receive I’m
(54:46) forced to steal right now I’m in a place where I have to act like I’m giving you something but steal during that back rub for me and you have a classic massage therapist who’s always giving if they don’t go fill their cup up and receive on the side a lot this is me too as a as a surrogate partner I give a lot of touch and for me I have bodyw work sessions every two weeks for two hours sometimes they’ve been every week just to make sure I’m giving getting stuff for me I need to keep my cup super full or else I will go into the giving
(55:23) session and I might steal something and I don’t ever want to do that it’s so interesting to think about the false dichotomy of narcissism and codependency right and how culturally there is a sanctioning of codependency right so if you give with a covert expectation to receive don’t worry about that you’re still giving right you’re in the giving role you’re so generous whereas you know the narcissistic end of the spectrum where you just take what you want you know like it or not I’m going to take what’s mine is shame I mean scroll any social
(55:58) media and there’s like 10,000 videos on how to deal with your narcissistic toxic ex or whatever it is but they are just two sides of the same coin and so what I hear you saying was of course what I believe which is that our responsibility as adults is to get in touch with what we actually want learn how to ask for it perfect the art of receiving and to hold our boundaries and our know that is what we give another and simultaneously give ourselves and that’s the beauty of it right so if you think about what would
(56:33) make for an amazing world right everybody who knows what the [ __ ] they want how to ask for it and is honest about their no right because if you ask to run your fingers down your partner’s body but you can’t trust that they would say no if they don’t want it then you’re still mind reading you’re still in that Vigilant anxiety like well what if they don’t like this I don’t know they said yes but what if they didn’t really mean it when we heal that caretaker when we step into personal responsibility and we really own our yes and our no all of
(57:05) that dissipates that’s why BDSM is appealing to people who have sexual trauma right because you can trust you’re in this role You’re The Giver I’m the receiver my know is my responsibility this is amazing right it’s just this clean clear pure consensual Dynamic where previously what existed was just a mess of violations of self and others right so it’s I mean what is more important than this right so that’s why I love this conversation with you because I know that you agree that the most powerful form of activism
(57:37) does not look like controversy it does not look like fighting the bad mommy and daddy it looks like embodiment it looks like taking responsibility for your vessel and learning how to experience pleasure right I mean it’s like who would think that that’s where you would land you know as an activist if I interviewed you 30 years ago You’ probably have some judgmental [ __ ] to say I definitely would and it would be really angry it’s so amazing to me I but this is fundamental this is what we should be learning you know so early in our life
(58:15) and instead you know in our 40s and 50s we’re figuring out like wow I don’t know how to say no and I I don’t know that that that’s a gift right like my limits like you said are a gift and and I have no idea what I want so what actually are we even doing with each other what’s actually occurring here it’s just a trauma field if we’re all doing that all the time we’re just like that couple having some kind of physical Escapade but no one had desire show up there and I do love to say if there were an oppressor wouldn’t they love to have a
(58:51) population that had no desire left wouldn’t that be convenient for someone who still had their desires intact right exactly it’s very obvious to me that this is how you oppress a population yes and within the wheel of consent we learn to if there’s anything I want and involves another person there’s only one thing I can do ask for it right that’s the only thing I can do and then abide by that answer which would stop pretty much all war you know right there so so I learn to ask for what I want I learn to live with the
(59:29) answer I learn to hear my body when I’m finished giving no matter what the gift is and say I’m finished giving now I’m done my limit is here and then also when we give we learn there’s no actually there’s no guessing in giving so this is also a huge relief for people in the sexual realm it’s like whoa never again do you have to reach out and wonder wonder if what you’re doing with your partner is helpful for them or they enjoy it or their pleasure in pleasure you don’t have to ever again because what are we gonna do instead we’re gonna
(1:00:07) say darling what would you love right now what would be fabulous for you my darling and then when they tell me if I feel like giving with an open heart because we only give with an open heart in the wheel of consent they be like all right is this what you had in mind honey was there anything different you’d like about this because I want to get this gift just right for you yes I want you to have it all right now isn’t that just it’s just so different so now sexual activity and sexual experience becomes this beautiful dance of deep desire and
(1:00:43) how deep can I go how much can I reveal of myself to you today and it’s fulfilling it’s finally fulfilling and so fulfilling it’s because our body is getting what it needs so my body is on fire in water my body is going through all every cell in my body is responding because I’m hearing that wisdom and I’m giving it my primordial need in the moment absolutely and when you say the responsibility that we have to ask for what we want it includes when we want to give to someone right like that’s where so much of my activist Shadow lived was
(1:01:23) I’m going to help you I’m going to solve your problems for you and never would I say on the interpersonal level or on the public stage like you know is this what you want do you want my help right do you want this information right if you have a a friend you know who just doesn’t seem to get what’s going on in the world and instead of sending them the YouTube or the journal article you know I would really feel good if I could share this with you does that work for you right like that’s one of the places where for me this concept has really
(1:01:58) smoked out a lot of covert agenda I mean as a mom I have not been the kind of mom for whatever reason to be like oh say thank you you know go hug your uncle none of that okay none of that went on however the other day you know we had someone really help out in a heroic way in my family recently like an adult right and so I felt like God it would be so nice if my daughter help about my daughter in a situation and it’ be so nice if she wrote him like a thank you card right like I like big on thank you cards but I really had that feeling and
(1:02:32) I thought what’s going on here right am I going to like coer my daughter to write she didn’t feel organically inspired to write this thank you card right so what’s actually going on here and so when I brought it up to her I said I would feel really good me if you would write this thank you card to this guy so it’s not you’re not doing it for him and only if you’re willing for me and if not cool I was like that is not the way you know I was ever asked to do anything for somebody else it was always like under the illusion that it’s for
(1:03:05) them right but there’s just so much to unpack here and I really see that the work that you have translated your impulse to serve Humanity I really see the way that you have been called to translate your impulse to serve into these very foundational elements of embodiment of sexual Reclamation and of conscious consent and awareness around our desires is it’s the road forward and so I’m I’m really really really excited about what you’re doing in the world and excited to learn more from you I would love River to end on a request for you
(1:03:49) to share an embodiment practice that you do personally because you talked about the self-care you know that is required in the work that you do and the self-attunement this recharging when you find yourself up in that beautiful brain of yours what do you do you know to to bring yourself back down into your body so that you can feel those Sensations that help you to know whether you’re in a yes or a no in a given situation in life is there some kind of go-to practice that you engage there sure is Kelly it’s about
(1:04:26) the the sensation in my skin so coming back to my sensation is what I bring myself back into because I know that’s where my wisdom lives and so when the we live consent we have one practice waking the hands where we learn how to use our hands for more than just tools but rather the what I call extremely highlevel leure perceptor masera hot rods that we’re born with here because there’s so many nerve endings here and this is an experience that changes over time as I wake my hands Everything Changes in my body as I do the practice
(1:05:03) more and more like meditating and so I come back to sensation in my body by waking my hands or like some other way like right before this podcast I asked my partner will you just lay down on my body all the way on top of me just physically lay there and ground me down for five minutes and let me just feel your breathing in my breathing so that I can come back to ation in my body so I can come from there I don’t like to use my mind more than like 30 minutes or an hour a day like do emails this is it the rest of the time I want to be moving
(1:05:37) from here and so I just bring myself back into physical sensation in my body beautiful way to do that is just lean back and pick up an an inanimate object because I can’t get confused with an object that I I can’t car take an object just pick an object up lean back back and just let your hands exquisitly feel sensation it’s not about what is the object feel like it about what is happening in your hands what can happen in your hands it’s a really Exquisite practice called waking the hands I am so glad that you shared that
(1:06:15) because that was a life-changing I also taught my girls that practice and just to reiterate because this it took me a long time to even get you know this simple instruction right so so let’s say you’re touching a ballpoint pen yeah you’re going to focus on what the pointy sensation feels like to your hands not what a pointy sensation feels like right I A lot of times I ask clients what did you notice and they’re like oh it’s hard and pointy like oh I meant what did you notice about your body your body because
(1:06:51) over time this neural connection inside my body from my hand to my brain over time this will open because we have neuroplasticity you may have heard of exactly and so over time this opens and I I want to add that as I wake my hands I may have a lot of challenging memories or difficult emotions come through because there are lots of dynamics that clamped down this sensory nerve connection over the time as I was growing up related to sexual shame possibly abuse trauma lots of different things shut this down so that I’m not
(1:07:32) using these as sensory perceptors and I’m talking about what happens in our culture to almost everybody and I don’t think it has to be that way but that is how it is today so as we open and wake our hands I do want to just say a caution and be gentle with yourself a lot of memories could come through could be a challenging moment it could be that that’s not pleasure it’s a lot of other feelings and that just that just because they want to come out they want to be seen this is actually a trauma practice as well so if we can just gently be with
(1:08:04) self through those moments if we need to set the object to the side take a break reregulate your system and come back to it so it’s like a beautiful pleasureful practice sometimes and usually but there often are things to work through as we go through the practice as well that aren’t so fun in the moment I mean all I can think about is like who needs some major you know psychedelic experience when you with your own body with your own skin you can have this Reclamation of all these fragmented dimensions of yourself it’s really profound so I am so
(1:08:42) so so excited you know about the work you’re doing and I think that it is such an essential bridge between conversations about sovereignty that otherwise would never be linked together and I’m delighted you know to walk path with you River it’s great great to be here with you thank you I really someone asked me just the other day is it all about sex is it all about sex you know and I’m like thank you for asking that it is not but the thing is this this sexual sovereignty piece like I realized as a lawyer you know I was a
(1:09:18) professional all the parts of my life were optimized I looked great on the outside except I had this totally Blank Space over here that I was hiding called sexuality and it was I was hiding and working around it and I now believe I can tell when people are doing that so I’m not fully Sovereign even if I look like all areas of my life are optimized I’m not fully Sovereign until I’m also sexually Sovereign so I’m working with sexuality for that reason because it is so rarely looked at and so many people have a hidden Blank Spot and I want that
(1:09:57) to be brilliant and shining and open once I am Sovereign also in that area then I believe that is now where I can bring my full self toward sovereignty and my life purpose on Earth and then when I am I’m building Community here in Austin we’ve got a gorgeous wheel head community of Wheel of consent practitioners that is just incredible and as we grow together and we’re Sovereign in our purpose individually I believe it’s those humans who are fully Sovereign who will change the course of humanity together in a really beautiful
(1:10:33) way even in the next few years and so that is why I do my work thanks for asking absolutely I mean I could obviously talk to you all day but the last point I’ll make is that the conscious Reclamation of that erotic energy is how you get back in touch with your power because otherwise you’re in what I call the erotic caress of the enemy when you were a trial attorney you were channeling a lot of erotic energy it’s just in the Taboo it’s in this unconscious Dynamic with that fight right like think of any enemy we fight
(1:11:05) as activists we’re obsessed by them our body is charged with all this stress you know Apothecary inside of ourselves and it’s it is an erotic Dynamic it’s just simply not only not conscious it’s not intentional it’s repressed and it’s not pleasurable overtly right it’s like we were talking about existential Kink it’s like you’re getting off it’s just through your own struggle suffering victim Consciousness and through controversy how do you transmute that how do you alchemize that so that your turn on your experience of your AOS is
(1:11:42) within your control and consent so it’s such a profound Dimension that no one is really talking about how this Euros is I mean it is life force it’s gonna it’s G to flow it’s going to pump it’s just like how much are you the one directing it and offering it your open heart right to diffuse that Force it’s it’s profound so thank you and this will definitely not be our last conversation again River awesome
