Can You Catch a Cold?

(00:01) [Music] I’m Dr Kelly Brogan you may know me as the New York Times bestselling author of a book with an exploding pill on the cover Renegade psychiatrist pul dancer or honorary member of the disinformation Dozen what can I say I’m a born provocator I’ve spent most of my recent life exposing deceptions connecting dots and discovering the secret places my inner victim is still waiting to be liberated and now I feel called to help you reclaim all of your parts your health your sexuality your power and your expression so that you can finally

(00:42) truly own yourself I want to ignite in you that inner knowing and the pulsing Vitality that lives beneath your disempowerment disconnection and resentment so that you can audaciously courageously and playfully alchemize your struggle into the specific pleasure of Who You Are this is Reclamation radio hi and welcome back to Reclamation radio I am Dr Kelly Brogan and I am here with Dr Daniel Rees to talk about his extraordinary book which is amazingly and I know there was some like backstory to how you chose this title ultimately and socratically

(01:22) but which is called can you catch a cold so he is a clinician and an ally and I want to make sure that everybody listening is aware that there is a resource that now exists to support your intuition around the body’s wisdom and specifically when it comes to I think one of the most and I’m sure you would agree penetrative you know memes let’s say penetrative thought viruses that exists collectively which is that you can be exposed to an invisible particle or I guess more you know materially the the fluids of a sick person and you can

(02:03) have an experience of your body that you wouldn’t otherwise have so before we dive in I just wanted to share one of the first times that I was opened up you know to this idea that perhaps germs don’t cause disease was when I was talking to my then Mentor Dr Nicholas Gonzalez and he was telling me about something I’ve never heard about before or since which is called um kin’s disease right and so you have several examples in the book like pellagra and scurvy of these assumed to be contagious phenomenon that ultimately turned out to

(02:40) be nutritional right so in this particular instance was like a province in China that was experiencing an a seeming epidemic of cardiomyopathy and you know there was even the the thought to deploy pharmaceutical interventions in injectable form because of the assumption that that this was contagious and when there was further investigation of some like epidemiologic anomalies they found that in the places where people had the symptoms they had specifically like selenium depleted soil and so clearly this was you know

(03:17) proximity was not causality and I that was one of the first times I thought oh my gosh the danger of assumptions right the danger of assumptions and perhaps it’s all you know by design and a reflection of deeper layers of Consciousness that I think we’ll get to unpack in this hour so first of all welcome and second of all I’m really interested in your initial aha moments around this subject and to know you know what started this snowball you know tumbling down the mountain that turned into like over a thousand references

(03:57) that you know in in my opinion it would impossible to resolve the cognitive dissonance that you would have reading this book and remaining uh with the conclusion that there is such a phenomenon called contagion and such a specific enemy out there called a germ so I’d love to just hear a little bit about your story making the shift into you know this perspective yeah thank you very much for having me Kelly I’m really excited to speak with you and looking forward to the conversation that we’re going to have this evening I was first

(04:30) exposed to this idea that germs may not cause disease in my undergraduate degree so 200 6 2007 I was introduced to this for the first time and I immediately dismissed it because I thought I’m here to learn science paying a lot of money for my degree and learn the real stuff I don’t want this pseudo science thrown at me and they taught us in the degree that time about terrain Theory so all the things that we’re talking about now they Tau us back then and I threw it out not entirely I approached the way that I

(05:11) practiced after I graduated with a dualistic perspective that there are germs that can make you sick but if your terrain is healthy enough if your immune system is functioning well and you doing all the right things to support your immune system you can be exposed to any germ and you won’t get sick and then in early 2020 I heard Dr Tom Cowan and Dr Andy calman and doctors like yourself uh following them and Dr Sam and Mark Bailey as well a little bit later talking about the same idea and I thought there’s got to be something to

(05:47) this I’ve I’ve heard about this before and my position at that time I was a senior lecturer at a university I’m no longer working there uh for various reasons but I knew that as a part of my position giving public talks and presentations and lectures that this topic would come up so I knew that I had to look into it and get enough information so that I could answer people’s questions confidently so I decided to start at the beginning thought just going to go back to when germ Theory first came about and even before then and just started

(06:22) massing a repository of information and Roman bionic who’s the coauthor of dissolving Illusions which is a fantastic book he caught wind of this and contacted me and said look man you’ve got to put all this stuff into a book you’ve got so many references and and experiments there that disprove this idea of contagion and I originally thought I was just going to put it into a little booklet that would take me a couple of months to write and uh four years later early this year 2024 in March we published I published the book so after

(06:56) four years of work and reading hundreds and thous or thousands of papers and working with a team of fantastic scientists and doctors and biologists and a microbiologist and a psychologist as well because there’s a lot of psychology in involved in this book we uh yeah published a book which I think really challenges this long held belief about contagion and certainly gives people who are on the fence or even who dismissed this idea something to think about how easy was it for you you to access these references because when I was in my you

(07:34) know 10,000 hour Rabbit Hole around um the subject of infectious disease it was back in probably it started I would say back in 2009 and I had you know like PubMed open to me and I could search various pre-existing you know websites and databases and it was just a matter of taking the time honestly everything was available and obviously since then I mean sometimes I even think with my daughters I’m like if they wanted to even you know look up something on Google these days and particularly since you know probably 200 18 and 19 with

(08:17) algorithmic changes they they literally wouldn’t be exposed to these resources they wouldn’t come up probably they’d be deeply buried on page 20 so of of the search results so how easy was it to come upon you know especially historical information or did you have to like Bob and weave through censorship Gates yeah it’s not easy to find that information and that’s one of the reasons why I wrote the book is for it to be a reference book basically a textbook written in a way that’s uh entertaining enough for people so they don’t get

(08:51) bored out of their mind uh but that’s essentially what it is it’s a it’s a textbook it’s a reference book with all those experiments there for people to access readily some of these references were incredibly difficult to find even the major ones like a lot of people talk about the Rosenau studies which are the ones done by the US Department of Health and the US Navy in 1919 with the Spanish Flu everyone talks about these and that was incredibly difficult to find the the full document it was like 120 page document and if you go into Pub medet

(09:29) and look for it doesn’t show up and if you really dig in PubMed you’ll find one part of it but you won’t find the other 2/3 so for me to find the full text took me weeks like literally eight hours a day I’m looking and I’m looking and I’m looking and you eventually find it you go great now I’ve got this and then you’ll read some of what they’re saying and they’ll mention another author’s name or they’ll mention another experiment okay right well now I need to go and find this one so I’ve got now to work with is a is a surname and a date

(10:04) and now I’m trolling through the literature trying to find the staff and sometimes it’s in German sometimes it’s in Spanish and French I mean it’s just incredibly timec consuming to find this stuff so yes there are a thousand plus references in there and I probably could have wrote it in a much shorter time span but much of that time much of that four years was spent hunting down information and you know Kelly I’m not surprised that it’s not readily available because if it was I think people would ask some pretty important questions around this

(10:41) idea of of contagion certainly doctors would when they’re going through their training and no one gets exposed to this stuff so even if they went looking for it they would find nothing so they would just the feeling and the thought of trying to investigate fur further would pass like I it’s too hard to find anything I’ll just let it go and you go about your career never to think of it again so hopefully this book does what it set out to do is to be a reference material for the general public and for medical and health professionals alike

(11:14) so you talk about the untold story that clearly you have Unearthed through these Herculean efforts you’ve made over these four years and part of the untold story that you document is that there were so-called anti- contagions in history right so if we assume that the dominant narrative that were fed by you know culture and health mandates and colloquial phrases and all that stuff today is you know it’s just sort of like arose like we we developed the knowledge and now here is the knowledge right it it tells a very

(11:57) different story than what you you have have exposed so I wonder if you could give a couple of the the teaser highlights of this you know uh historical you know sort of dualism around this idea that either contagion is something to worry about as a human being or it’s actually there’s nothing to see here there’s nothing to worry about because I I don’t imagine that many people would would know that there were discussions about what so many of our colleagues are coming to understand about the nature of the human body and

(12:34) our relationship to microbes today right like we’re we’re we’re digging up most of us you know some of these older Concepts that already have existed we’re not coming up with new ones necessarily to help understand you know relationships so yeah could you share a little bit about that for people who’ve never heard of what the hell I was just talking about for the past you know couple minutes sure where under the assumption The Germ Theory manifested itself after years and years and years of trial and error and doctors

(13:07) ACC crewing information and we eventually had an accumulation of sufficient evidence to suggest that hey maybe germs cause disease and then we have past T come along and he does some of the final scientific experiments to prove for sure that our assumptions and all this accumulated evidence factual and now we we’ve proven it that’s it no more questions it’s all good that’s not the way it happened they were about to throw out germ Theory when I say they the medical profession so we’re talking mid 1800s they were on the cusp they

(13:43) were on the cusp of throwing out this idea of contagion because they had disproven so many illnesses that they thought were contagious and showed that they weren’t contagious like yellow fever for example they thought forever that it was certainly contagious they showed that it wasn’t and that was one of the final Nails in the coffin for this idea of contagion once they demonstrated this the 95% of the medical profession in the United Kingdom at least and I would say probably the similar percentage in the United States

(14:15) around that time were all in agreement that there was no contagion the overwhelming majority of doctors thought this and just as they were about to throw it out past two comes along and puts out some experiments which he says demon well he said demonstrated that germs cause disease and we hear this story about his Swan flask experiments and these various other things that he did traveling up the Pyrenees Mountains and doing all sorts of things with various flasks and exposing it to air and showing that germs exist in the

(14:52) atmosphere and yada Y and that flimsy evidence it wasn’t really even evidence that flimsy story that he told was then propped up and used as evidence to support this idea that germs cause disease without any human experimentation it was basically just some lab work being done and that Lifeline was then clasped very tightly by this 5 to 10% of the medical profession and basically then slowly implemented into medical education over the next 30 to 40 years and the medical profession were very reluctant to accept

(15:38) this idea they weren’t embracing germ Theory with open arms it took decades and decades and decades for medical doctors particularly in the United States to accept the idea that germs cause disease and that disease is contagious most of these doctors were you said they were sanitarian doctors and they believe that it was the environment that dictated your health so it was the quality of the food you ate the water that you drank the quality of the air the type of work that you did sanitary conditions whether or not you

(16:17) have access to clean water and are you living in your own filth and these kinds of things so they understood back then that they were the key factors that detered determined whether or not someone was healthy or sick The Germ even if it existed was inconsequential to them and then you had the flexner report in 1913 which was basically the death nail for this way of thinking it was ousted it was blacklisted and colleges weren’t allowed to teach this sort of sanitary method or or understanding of medicine and even

(16:53) meteorological medicine that entire Field’s cast by the wayside around that same time when the flex report was released and the rest is history the rest just unfolded naturally we had the acceptance of uh mainstream medicine and it developed over time under this faulty premise and here we are today now believing that there’s things floating through the air that can make people sick and I I just want to say I don’t know categorically if germs do or do not cause disease I’ve been searching for evidence to suggest the germs cause

(17:27) illness and so far I haven’t been able to find any it’s not to say that it doesn’t exist it may be out there but I personally haven’t been able to find any and neither have any of the people who helped me work on this book we’ve been searching for a very long time and I know that you probably have as well this should be some of the easiest evidence to find it shouldn’t be hard yet it’s it’s either not there or it’s hidden somewhere in the anals of medicine and forgotten to time so yeah I I don’t know either way I can’t say 100%

(18:00) for certain but I’m certainly leaning towards this this idea that it’s probably as Basham said the terrain is everything and then on his deathbed past said you’re right the terrain is everything The Germ is nothing you know you and I know that the burden of proof is on the positive assertion right so if somebody’s going to introduce a new idea and challenge the pre-existing consensus then that is what requires the proof so as you’re saying where is it right like where is it you’ve been searching high and low and of course you know

(18:37) conspiracy you know realist that I am for me the story that you you tell has many uh well-positioned characters who seem to have organically emerged you know from the populace and also a very clear agenda that at a certain point clutches the dominant narrative and you know as somebody who’s also very dedic ated to smoking out victim Consciousness wherever it may lie of course it lies in that story I just told so I prefer to believe that all of this is unfolding in Perfect Design right so there is you know even in in this character Pastor

(19:15) right and in this death deathbed disclosure that most of us have heard of right that he sort of admits that everything he you know was responsible for propagating was potentially not actually true that is very common right that the truth is in plain sight right that that that even the purveyors of the myths and deception themselves also disclose the truth right like there’s a little Cosmic wink and so I see a lot of that in in this story and I love having learned uh from your book more about you know this uh this

(19:52) pre-existing consensus because and we’ll talk about this in a little bit but we’re grabbing a lot of the gems and Pearls from those conversations that were happening between researchers and and clinicians you know back back in the day so you know when we talk about germ Theory first of all got to love that the theory part is always in there when we talk about that we’re talking about germs in general and I I like to think you know I I pay attention to media and the way that you know these colloquial conversations are happening

(20:28) but when people talk they’re not really necessarily specifically focusing on different microbes right or germs or or what does that mean is it bacteria is it virus is it fungus we use this term infection as like a blanket explanation for the body being invaded by something that it’s dealing with right can you talk a little bit about what you discovered with regard to the way that let’s say bacteria and viruses are treated differently in your research and where you have arrived in a nutshell which is where so many of us have you

(21:07) know when it comes to specifically the virus conversation because most of the book I mean the book could be you know 10,000 pages about at this level of research about every single infectious disease ever but most of it is about you know the the cold and flu viruses right so give us a little bit of a primer on how we might consider thinking about these different germs yeah it’s a very relevant topic the cold and flu issue if it’s if flues are contagious or not and I really wanted to F focus and hone in on that concept and challenge that I

(21:46) deal with this book I actually had another 50,000 words on other illnesses so i’ looked at scarlet fever Ms chickenpox various other illnesses as well but I decided no I’m going to remove that and there like a whole another book there actually I could publish and all similar results with those experiments um in relation to the negative findings to do with contagion but for Simplicity sake I wanted to to remove all that and just focus on the cold and flu but when it comes to things like bacteria and parasites and funy and

(22:21) just germs in general we typically see this idea I think was really promulgated by anti contag back in the mid to late 1800s because they thought the body was sterile so that’s where some of this issue has arisen from is this concept that the body was clean that there were no germs that lived on you or in you and if you found a germ and someone was sick well the germ must have been the problem so we hear this analogy all the time you don’t blame the fireman for the fire you don’t blame the detectives for the

(22:55) crime you know you don’t blame the Flies for the horse poo or the cow poo so we see bacteria and parasites and fungi at the sight of damaged tissue but it doesn’t necessarily mean they were the cause of the problem and again the anti contagion understood that they were the cons that germs were the consequence of disease not the cause of disease 150 years ago they knew this that the tissue damage happened first and then all the microorganisms that exist within you come along the they are you like we think of bacteria

(23:35) as separate to us or parasites are separate to us or fungi and things separate to us but they are us these microorganisms are as much of a part of us as our white blood cells are it’s just that our white blood cells are internal and the other microorganisms are external to us so they exist in the mucus membranes of the body like in the lung the mucous membranes of the eye the reproductive tract on our skin so they’re the interface between the the external world and our body they allow us to interface with the world around

(24:15) us so when some of that tissue becomes damaged the mucous membranes or the skin that’s exposed to the external world then those microorganisms proliferate and clean up the mess so of course if you find some damaged tissue there you’re going to find germs they attempted to cause illness like doctors attempted to cause illness by introducing these things even parasites into healthy people nothing happened nothing ever happened so what they had to resort to say staff for example when they put it into like onto people’s skin it did nothing later on

(24:59) they found that staff was just a normal commensal part of the human microbiome but originally they didn’t realize that they thought it was only there in disease States so they put it onto people’s skin nothing happened so then what they did was they started getting sandpaper and like a cheese grater and grating up people’s skin and then come coming and lathering massive quantities or even taking needles and injecting this stuff subcutaneous ly underneath the skin underneath this damaged skin and then an infection would happen and would get all

(25:36) red and flamed and and all sort of stuff they go ah see bacteria does cause illness but they could only do that after the tissue had been damaged and now there’s evidence that has come out in recent decades even in the 80s that were looking at this showing that things like staff actually produce substances that help to heal damaged skin right so it’s not these it’s not the bacteria’s fault the bacteria are you you don’t look at someone with sosis of the liver from abusing alcohol for 20 years and you take a biopsy of their

(26:12) liver and you see all this scar tissue and some macres and other white blood cells in the liver tissue and go oh must be the white blood cells causing the problem no one does that that’s crazy to think that your white blood cells would be doing that it was the alcohol’s problem right so the alcohol damage to the then the body responded same with germs we have to look at the cause of the problem what is the thing that damaged the tissue first that is where our attention should lie and then the germ is inconsequential it is just there

(26:41) doing the job stop focusing on the firemen stop focusing on the detectives at the scene of the crime stop focusing on the Flies on the horse poo or whatever it is they are the consequence they are not the cause so everyone’s taking camos and I am feeling this Trend because I love fortifying my food with food rather than supplements in capsules so in case you don’t know seamoss is a natural gel that has over 90 bioavailable minerals and vitamins and it’s a natural Prebiotic I personally love samati sea moss which is a super

(27:17) transparent company that I trust and they serve up raw wild sea moss that is never harvested from rope which is apparently a thing and they have nine different flavors including tonic herb and medicinal mushroom infused Blends blends with chillit and their fruit Blends they all are super palatable I take a tablespoon or two a day and I wash it down like the whole tablespoon I just washed down with lemon water and it is 100% not gross so that’s essential for me because otherwise I’m just not going to comply they don’t have any

(27:55) preservatives thickeners artificial ingredients and I noticed a shift within one week specifically in my digestion so I’m really pumped about it they are offering yall 10% off with the code kelly1 so check out the link and show notes I wonder what you can explain to folks because it’s almost like I can I can feel a percolating question which is okay so if that’s true we’re talking about bacteria and I’m thinking about like a urinary tract infection or a skin infection or you know this kind of um sinusitis or

(28:33) whatever why would an antibiotic work then right and we’re going to talk in a little bit about the role of psychology and placebo effect my favorite subject so we don’t have to necessarily touch on that but if there is a physiologic impact like when I when I researched this I found evidence that you know antibiotics have a direct impact on stress physiology right and on on cortisol uh secretion and so they sometimes can just be like a kick in the adrenals that suppresses the expression of symptoms but I wonder what you would say to folks

(29:09) who say okay okay okay but why would an antibiotic work if the bacteria aren’t the problem and the antibiotic is as we like to imagine it’s this specific the antibiotic is just killing all the bacteria why would I ever get better then yeah you can’t look at the treatment you can’t look at the effect of a treatment and then Garner any information or any insight as to the cause of the problem Oh I took a paracetamol when I had a headache oh therefore you must have had a paracetamol deficiency right no that’s not how it works you can’t work you

(29:45) can’t work backwards from this you have to work forwards you have to find out what was the reason why you got the in the infection which is actually the healing response in the first place so I think the reason why why this is so difficult for people to understand is because they’re confused about what disease actually is and what symptoms actually are and what signs actually are it’s the healing response disease is the healing response yeah hit against our bodies uh psycho emotionally from our early childhoods it’s very easy for us

(30:18) to collude with the rejection of our bodies right that says like these symptoms feel bad so I must you know get on the team that says these symptoms are bad and we can suppress them through these different Avenues right so because if you’re on if you stay on your own team then you would always be curious about what the symptoms are trying to tell you about your lived experience right whether that’s an exposure or you know a dynamic or a habit in your life but it’s really that it’s that fulcrum that says like are you with you or are

(30:54) you with us and the US is usually deeply invested in this idea that your symptoms are the problem your body is the problem right like let’s let’s manage that so I’d love I you know I I just love meeting folks who who have come to such um similar conclusions and and through the bridge of science right so you have all of this amassed to support this more beautiful truth that feels so much better to to believe so okay so we’re talking about you know bacteria you touched on this idea of parasites and and and fungus what about uh viruses

(31:34) because obviously the you know sort of zeitgeist of uh awareness around this concept of viruses which is philosophically and metaphysically even more interesting because uh they aren’t you know grossly visible right according to to the dominant narrative the way the bacteria and and fungus and parasites are right just pop a slide under a microscope so now we’re talking about something an even an even more elusive enemy and you know I wonder if you can summarize a lot of what these 200 experiments you know really found when it comes to viruses

(32:16) and of course the conclusion that you and so many of us have come to about whether or not they actually even exist yeah it’s an interesting and important topic that I think deserves a lot of discussion before doctors assumed that viruses caused illness the cold and flu they were under the assumption that bacteria were the cause because they found the bacteria fifers billus in the respiratory tracts of sick people and after failing to make healthy people sick by exposing them to this bacteria and finding this bacteria and healthy

(32:51) people despite holding on to this idea for three decades they finally let it go and said right it can’t be the bacteria can’t be there’s too many pieces of information that conflict with this idea and this Theory so they had to let it go and they had to replace it with something because now they were wedded to this idea that it must be a germ and they thought well there’s got to be something smaller so let’s call it a virus and they looked and they looked and they couldn’t find anything they had nothing tangible to work with and then

(33:24) maybe in the 20s or 30s there was a gentleman I can’t remember his his name now but he basically gave a definition of what a virus was because it was really hard for the medical profession in the field of virology to advance forward because they never saw a virus they had no idea what it was they had nothing to really work with and go forward with and he provided a definition of what a virus was and allowed the field of virology to basically be born and then blossom into this field of Medicine that we have today and he defined a virus he he said

(34:02) that a virus is a virus because a virus is a virus like he literally said this right and everyone went ah awesome great okay now we know what a virus is now we can start tackling this problem so they never saw a virus in the bodily fluids of a sick person they were using logical fallacies and circular reasoning to to Define what viruses were and then they were doing experiments to create the effect that they were looking for so they were essentially poisoning cells in culture flasks and finding debris and pointing to pieces of cellular breakdown

(34:36) and saying that’s the virus but never controlled for their results or their experiments they never dealt with these problems there’s all these confounding variables as to other things that might be causing the effect that they’re looking for but their controls were never done and despite all of this they continued to accept this idea that it must be a virus so here we are today with what I think is uh scientists creating substances that don’t exist in nature in a lab they’re poisoning and starving cells in a completely unnatural

(35:18) way getting an effect and then using that effect to prop up this idea that what they’re seeing is a virus never taking those particles and exposing them to healthy people and seeing if they cause disease they’ve never done that I don’t think they can do that because if they do it’ll show that nothing happens um and even like more simply than that is the idea of contagion so it’s like there these things exist in your body fluid even though we can’t see them they’re there but then when they take the body fluid and expose it to healthy people

(35:52) does nothing nothing happens so there’s so many things wrong with this the that just don’t hold up to scrutiny and rather than science and medicine going right maybe we got it wrong let’s see if we can reevaluate here in course correct they just defend and defend and get on the on the front foot and they go on the attack and say we don’t we don’t know what we’re talking about and the evidence is there and it’s uh well established and these kinds of things but never once do they provide the evidence to substantiate

(36:27) that these things actually exist and cause illness so they’re sort of they’re trapped in this uh in this Paradigm now and they can’t escape it because if they were to ever come out and say hey we got it wrong it would be irreconcilable they they could not undo all of the damage that this theory has caused humanity and and the environment over the last 100 and whatever years there’s not enough money in the world there’s not enough ways in which they could undo this damage so they’ll never admit it so I don’t know what the um the outcome is

(37:01) there whether there’s going to be two sort of coexisting thought patterns amongst Health practitioners and patients or if there’s going to be another outcome that I we could speculate as to what might happen but all we can do is just highlight these issues and let the chips for where they may yeah that’s why I’ve always loved that Bucky Fuller quote about you know fighting the existing system which I attempted to do for a decade of my you know career activism versus building a new one that renders it obsolete I mean

(37:38) that is the Reclamation of your energy right so even even the tone and the the feeling of your your book is to me it’s not like approving like I will prove to you bad daddy that you wronged me you know it’s really just sort of it’s almost delightful it’s almost just sort of like wow look at all of this you know like there’s 200 experiments and you know first of all there’s no randomized trials and they’ve never ever one time ever proven this thing we’ve all been you know colonized by this concept and what’s interesting to me is that I I see

(38:18) the same and I’m sure many people do the same dyamics in other tropes right in other theories right so my first SA cow was the the monoamine hypothesis or the serotonin theory of depression and when I went and looked you know and also there were others you know who who you know there were four fathers and mothers who had been looking already for many years you know there were at the time there was six Decades of efforting to prove this Theory right it’s like the theory was posited and then there’s like a scramble over many years to look in

(39:00) you know cerebras spinal fluid and and quote unquote genes and looking at serotonin depletion studies and looking what happens with a when a healthy person is and not one there’s not a shred it’s the same story and somehow you know we still are watching commercials about how Zoloft is going to cure your chemical imbalance so if that theory fits with with where you’re at in your you know psycho emotional or Spiritual Development it’s going to be comforting right it’s going to feel better to believe that you are indeed

(39:38) broken and there is this evidence that says you know there’s nothing you can do it’s like reifying the powerlessness is actually familiar but what gets me and I know you too like it’s like on a on a scientific conversational level on an academic level we know that the methods matter right like when you read a paper you don’t just read the conclusion it’s like the methods ma matter every clinician and scientist knows that and yet these methods still say you know still make presumptive statements like you know in

(40:16) this case the virus was purified right like and then somebody a lay person might say well look at this paper it says the virus was purified what are you talking about you’re saying that hasn’t happened look it’s says it right here it has happened and so it’s like this hand waving and and smoking mirrors that perpetuates it but even in the very community that has pledged allegiance to the scientific method like we all agreed this is what the scientific method looks like this is the game we’re playing so how come you know you’re allowed to play

(40:48) dirty like this and not adhere to your own methodology like how is this happening so I’d love to just talk briefly and I know this is a huge subject in your about these postulates right like about this this agreement that we all made in the medical and scientific Community around ker Rivers’s postulates to to say okay this is how we’ll know that there’s a causal agent here and like what happened that nobody is actually adhering to these in the academic world like certainly I’m not in the in the business of debating academicians about

(41:23) you know why they still believe what they believe I think there’s no point in that but it’s just sort of like this is so funny like this is really funny that we’re in this position so so what is it that we have agreed and what do you think you know scientists in the mainstream are saying about those agreements as they choose to not adhere to them right in the conversation about germ Theory this isn’t just even for germ Theory I think this is for science as a whole I’m not even sure that if you go and study a science degree they

(42:01) actually even teach you what the actual scientific method is and if you go and look in the internet for the scientific me like what is science it’s so unclear even though science is a method it’s a very simple set of steps that should be followed and when they are followed logically and sequentially it demonstrates a cause and effect relationship between X and Y I’m not sure that’s actually being taught in science degrees anymore I think they’re getting all this other fluff to draw attention away from this method and we

(42:43) see this all the time when we’re saying to scientists and doctors hey they didn’t follow the scientific method here they’re like what are you talking about the scientific method is blah blah blah blah blah it’s all these things it’s like no no no no that’s not what the scientific method is here it is and they haven’t followed it and they start getting defensive and there’s all these logical fallacies getting thrown around essentially Robert KO devised a well actually he didn’t even devise CO’s postulates he ripped them off someone

(43:12) else that much drama everyone points to K as this This brilliant guy This brilliant mind who created a set of steps to demonstrate that a germ causes illness and essentially it was you find the germ in a sick person only in sick people you isolate that germ a pure culture we’re talking about bacteria here when you have the pure culture you then expose a healthy person to that bacteria and it will replicate The Identical disease and then you find that bacteria in that sick person and you reisolate it now you’ve

(43:54) completed the steps So in theory that would work if germ theory was correct like I completely agree with those postulates 100% however when he when K set out to demonstrate the germs cause disease using his own postulates he couldn’t do it no sooner had he created those postulates than he was like oh I’ve got to modify them and he had to modify them in such a way to be like well you don’t have to find the germ in only sick people like they’ll exist in healthy people and then he had to create this idea of immunity and all these sort of

(44:29) rescue devices and basically changed his postulates under the assumption that his postulates were incorrect but the theory was true so he was trying to chop and change these postulates to fit a broken Theory rather than saying oh these postulates are actually right and they’re not proving the theory therefore the theory is wrong he was like oh no I’ve stuffed up somehow the postulates can’t be right cuz the theory is true there’s a big disconnect there and those modified postulates where now you can find the germ in healthy and sick people

(45:07) and if you expose people to The Germ and they don’t get sick or you find the germ in healthy people repeatedly well it’s because you’re immune or you’ve got good genes or it’s because it’s a nonpathogenic strain of the particular bacteria like there’s all these things that have to now get invented to explain way these inconsistencies and anomalies when if you just think about it logically and rationally maybe it’s just because germs don’t make you sick so if they were intellectually honest with themselves back

(45:40) then they should have thrown it out and gone no it’s it’s wrong but I think there were other things going on in the background behind the scenes where this Theory had to be propped up to act as a scapegoat possibly act as a scapegoat for the damaging effects of other things that we were being exposed to as a consequence of modernity so I’m talking about like spraying our food with poison putting poison in the water supply breathing polluted air being detached from nature the dissolution of the family unit working 60h hour weeks being

(46:20) discontent with your life like all these things right now we’re all getting sick where we once weren’t living that way and people were much healthier now we see all this disease coming through it’s like oh is it all these things no no no don’t worry about any of that stuff it’s not the poison it’s not the artificial lighting and the synthetic clothing and the pollution in the air it’s a germ people go oh that’s that explains it so now we don’t deal with the true underlying CS so I think that’s maybe the reason why they had to

(46:49) be intellectually dishonest and say no it is the germ guys rather than admitting hey look we got it wrong they weren’t acting in in good faith for what I believe to be a sort of a red herring right it’s it’s a scapegoat it’s the old magic trick look over here and meanwhile there something else going on behind the scenes and the natural extension of that belief system really your only choices are to experience others as the enemy so it’s the atomizing of the human species right like all of the sudden we start to

(47:27) you know suspect that somebody else might be a vector of harm right so how do you control that you avoid other people or you you know guard yourself Andor you further poison yourself so you collude with industry and engage Pharma and you know you perpetuate exactly you know that which is propagating the issue right so that’s often what we end up doing this this dance this like whacka dance of like oh I’ll I’ll suppress it over here and you know something new crops up some side effect some unintended consequence and then you

(48:06) don’t connect those dots and there you become a patient right a chronic patient from an acute exposure so you talked about some of these vectors of what we call illness right and this replacement Theory fallacy or whatever you want to refer to it as where just because you know you’ve compiled the evidence that in my opinion incontrovertibly demonstrates that so-called germs do not cause the cold right if we want to limit it to that um but I would say illness in general it’s not actually the burden of proof is not

(48:46) on you to provide the replacement Theory right so this is what it’s a logical fallacy that so many people engage where you say well okay well if it’s not that then how do you explain my toddler going to daycare and coming home with the same thing that his little desk neighbor Johnny had and of course Whenever there are multiple potential explanations then a rigid and dogmatic Theory cannot possibly Encompass them all like once there’s even a few explanations then you know all bets are are off and we don’t know for sure I

(49:21) mean you you have the humility to admit that you can’t even necessarily rule out the possibility that that you know contagion is a driver it’s just that there’s no evidence yet so it’s just one of the potential theories that are unfounded right what have you understood to be some of the most compelling drivers uh if not the definitive explanation right some of the most compelling drivers and you’ve referenced some of them already of what we are calling illness that you and I agree is actually the manifested healing

(49:56) response like what what have you kind of come to zero in on I didn’t really mention this in the book but I have been looking at this in more detail since writing the book and that is this idea that nature doesn’t do disease so if you look at anthropological and even medical evidence where doctors teams of doctors went in to visit uncontacted tribes throughout history even through the 18 1800s early 1900s even today they’re doing this there’s still some tens of thousands of people living uncontacted in the world I think a couple of dozen

(50:37) tribes when anthropologists and doctors and even explorers like the First Fleet in Australia when they landed here and the explorers in the Pacific and the Spanish in the new world they all commented that the natives were free of disease they couldn’t they were just blown away no one’s got disease there’s no cancer there’s no diabetes there’s no heart disease there’s no obesity there’s no depression there’s no anxiety that mean there’s nothing they’re all healthy and in Peak physical condition so what that tells us that gives us a

(51:12) baseline when you live in harmony with nature and we are a part of nature we are not separate to it there is no disharmony there is no imbalance there is no disease because what diseas is is the body or the environment in an active state of returning to balance so if you drop a rock into some water it creates ripples so the rock is the thing that caused the problem the ripples are the symptom the ripples are there for the water now to find its level again and when the water binds balance in homeostasis there’s no more ripples so

(51:56) the disease goes away so we have to ask the question what is the rock what is the thing that’s causing the ripples we don’t blame the ripples for the problem the ripples are the symptom the ripples are the answer disease is the healing response so we have the Baseline now of when you live in harmony with nature there’s no disease so what are all the things that we are doing that we weren’t that we’re doing now that we weren’t doing back then there’s a list as long as you’re AR we’re spraying our food with poison we’re not eating seasonally

(52:26) we’re not eating locally we’re not growing our own food we’re disconnected from our food supply we’re importing food from thousands of kilometers away we’re processing it we’re adding chemicals into it we’re stripping it of nutrients and reading nutrients back in we’re destroying our environment we’re polluting our water supply we’re polluting our air I mean I don’t want to keep going on here people get the idea the answer to all of this is to getting back to basics to getting back to balance to let nature have a bit of a chance to restore some

(53:02) balance because disease is essentially just a barometer of how sick and dysfunctional a society is and the Western Society is a sick toxic dysfunctional Society so we just need to look at what our ancestors are doing take a feather out of their cap and realign ourselves with how they lived I’m not saying we have to go and live back in the Dark Ages but we can take some steps that would go a long way to reducing a lot of this burden of chronic disease here so what are those things let’s maybe even look at how our

(53:37) ancestors lived a 100 years ago 150 years ago they were building their houses out of natural Building Material they were growing their own food they were farming regeneratively and sustainably they had a family unit they were more connected many more people were working on the land they felt like they had purpose and meaning in their life but they spending more time outside I mean there’s just so many simple things that we take for granted and we go that possibly couldn’t have any effect on my health because it’s so

(54:07) simple and what you mean like getting out in the sun and breathing some fresh air and just relaxing for a bit is helpful to my health yeah these things are so simple they’re essential to life but we discount them because they’re free and they’re easy and they’re simple and they’re low barrier to entry we’ve been conditioned to believe that the only way to become health Y is to go and see someone one who’s done 10 years of training specialty training who’s got a prescription pad and a white coat and a and a scalpel or some fancy equipment

(54:37) they’re the only ones who hold the key to my health and the opposite is true you hold the key you hold the power and it’s about getting back to basics like this is not a secret we’ve known this for a long time it’s just that we need to reconnect to this information and what would you add about the role of belief and no CBO effect and even phenomena of uh social contagion that have existed you know because the uh lifestyle practices I mean I I have a protocol with history making outcomes that is the most basic lifestyle

(55:12) practice so it doesn’t even take that much of a disruption right of our exposures to for the body to Exhale and say thank you right and you know the fir I’d like to joke affectionately that the first two weeks of of vital mind reset are just brainwashing right like without that front loading of a different way of thinking and you know restoring the locus of control within as you’re referencing you know a lot of these lifestyle factors may not even have the chance that they would to communicate that signal of safety to the body

(55:50) because of the power of belief that I know you know you reference in the book so I think it’s still hard for a lot of folks to appreciate just how powerful fear let’s say of exposure to germs or others who are sick can be but we this is a well documented phenomenon right so I wonder if you could just share a line or two about what you’ve concluded is the role of your beliefs and Associated fears in actually manifesting the symptoms that we would otherwise see in the setting of detox you know that that you and I are referencing here yeah

(56:29) there Placebo controlled experiments where they’ve exposed people healthy people to saline told them it was a germ they gave them saline and they manifested a caual flu and they came in the next day after watching them overnight and they said ha I gotcha wasn’t a germ or saltwater and they got better within 15 minutes so the power of the Mind was sufficient or is powerful enough to manifest symptoms of a cold or flu can manifest any disease it’s powerful enough to make people’s hair fall out when they’re under the

(56:58) assumption that they’re exposed to chemotherapy it’s powerful enough to reverse symptoms of arthritis when people believe they were given a surgery when they weren’t like there’s all kinds of things where people have been given a placebo and that disease went away so the opposite also works which is the no sibo so if you’re told that if you come in contact with a sick person from the day you can walk and people in places of authority or positions of authority tell you this and you believe it and then one day you come in contact with the sick

(57:32) person and you get sick and you go ah what Mom and Dad and the doctor told me must be true must I must have caught a germ from this other person you now carry that forward with you for the rest of your life it’s a self fulfilling prophecy and we become conditioned to that we hold on to it till the day we die and if people like you and I come along and say hang on a second actually there’s all these other reasons why you might be getting sick and just that mental conditioning alone might be sufficient to play a profound role in

(58:04) disease manifestation and we need to course correct and challenge the way we’re thinking like go no no no it couldn’t possibly be right because this happened to me personally so it’s really hard to undo a lot of that conditioning but a lot of people understand it and I think it’s just about repetition just keep repeating this information and the people that are ready to hear it will will get access to it and those who are willing to look into it further for themselves and possibly integrate some of this information into their own life

(58:35) will benefit from it okay I have one more uh point to make on this subject before we wrap up which is you know I um I come from Italian stock and there is a passionate belief while every Italian I know and my family believes in in germ Theory there’s a passionate belief about the power of air conditioning to me you sick right and the role of climate and temperature and I was like really delighted to see a a treatment of that material in your book because I do think there’s some like conflicting internal tropes that a lot of us are culturally

(59:16) raised with so you know what what would you say is your you know I guess conclusion of that’s too strong a word on the role of climate and temperature in what many you know cultures seem to feel is contributory to the cold and flu I would say yeah the cold was named the cold because of the symptoms that people experienced after there was a cold snap or a change in temperature influenza was called influenza because of the symptoms that people experienced from the influence of the cold so our ancestors put the answers there for us it’s not a secret

(59:58) they were trying to tell us the answer but now we’ve said no no when you get when there’s a cold uh there’s a cold snap and there’s a temperature change more viruses are in the air and it dries out your mucous membranes and then you’re more susceptible to catching your virus but actually we know that changes in humidity and temperature cause physiological changes in the respiratory tract and it essentially causes the body to purge I mean to put it really simply you undergo a purge when there’s a change in humidity and temperature below

(1:00:29) a certain threshold now if you don’t need to purge if you’ve been taken care of yourself then you don’t Purge you’re not immune there’s nothing to be immune against it’s just the body doesn’t now need to purge itself but if you’ve been doing all the wrong things and this environmental Trigger or signal occurs well now you’re going to have to purge you’re going to have to pay the price so that’s really what’s going on I think the meteorological effects on respiratory infections are profound there’s considerable evidence to demonstrate

(1:01:01) this and they were looking at this idea the meteorological doctors were looking at this in the 1900s but that uh Division and profession of medicine really fell by the wayside when the Advent of viruses came through and unfortunately I think the answers really lie in the information that they had already found hund whatever years ago but it’s been suppressed and because it’s so simple and it makes so much logical sense we discount it couldn’t possibly be that simple that cold is caused by a cold or even in tropical

(1:01:39) areas where there’s less temperature changes in uh in variance in the seasons it’s humidity change and that’s the thing that triggers it so it doesn’t necessarily have to be a huge drop in temperature it can just be a few percentage Point differences in uh humidity so I think there’s a lot that we can learn by looking at the world around us and studying meterological changes as well so my friend what is life like when your answer to the question can you catch a cold is no like how would you say that the shift that

(1:02:18) you’ve made has changed your experience of living life in a human body no fear right The Germ Theory keeps you in this world of fear oh my God am I going to go outside and get sick as am I going to catch something you’re externalizing the reasons why you get sick you have uh less accountability now if I get sick I know it’s on me right that I was doing the wrong thing I was eating the wrong thing I was thinking the wrong thoughts wasn’t taking care of my body I wasn’t getting outside and getting enough fresh

(1:02:49) air or sunlight or you know it’s on me I can’t say oh it was nothing that I was doing it was a virus so I have to now take accountability and make sure that I’m practicing what I’m preaching yeah so the simple things that I advocate for dietry and lifestyle recommendations which are really simple in theory but they’re not necessarily easy to uphold every single day yeah knowing that disease is earned not caught really has you know keeps you on your game you got to be really staying on top of all this stuff particularly in this sort of toxic

(1:03:25) world that we live in not even just with like pollution and stuff but also toxic thoughts and all these things that we’re bombarded with in the media and all these sort of toxic ideas and whatever else you really have to stay on top of all that so yeah I don’t have any fear anymore I know that I don’t catch anything from anybody else and if I do get sick it’s my own fault and it’s just my body’s way of recovering it’s not a disease that I need to suppress that the symptoms are the answer to the problem and I thank my body if I get sick I’m

(1:03:57) like I’m sorry that I treated you so badly and thank you for doing what you need to do to return me to balance actually I love my body when I’m sick rather than hating my body and going you’re doing something wrong so it’s a big Paradigm Shift there for me may also be experienced by other people but yeah I guess I can only really talk for myself yeah I guess that’s why I wrote the book is just to share that information with people so they can get access to it and then what they choose to do with that information moving

(1:04:27) forward in their life is really up to them thank you body thank you Daniel and thank you for this epic contribution that I feel should be in every family’s home Library if not to to reinforce the intuitive truth that these bodies are wise and that we are meant to live in connection to one another and the natural world so I appreciate you so much thank you for this conversation thank you Kelly I really appreciate it it was a wonderful uh experience to finally touch Bas with you I’ve been following your work for quite a many

(1:05:05) years and so as my wife so yeah it’s been a real pleasure thanks [Music] you