If Not Government, Then What?

(00:02) we have been duped by feminism sexual Liberation and anti-depressants we have been told that we are powerful and free now as women but we feel tired wired and bitter we’re mostly eating right exercising and meditating wrangling to-do lists and arranging playdates and yet there’s a haunting hollowness beneath the huge complaint what if I told you that there is a huge Storehouse a reservoir of energy inside of you that has not been tapped that you could feel light and pulsing excited and alive in ways that a wellness lifestyle

(00:49) cannot deliver that you could trust yourself that the world could feel safe and that unexpected and expected Delights could start to illuminate your path no coach therapist doctor or Guru required just you learning to get real present and attentive with you I feel like I’m here to matchmake your inner parts for the greatest love affair ever written I want to help you learn first where you’re buying eggs from the hardware store which is the source of all pain I want to help you master entering through the upset which is the

(01:27) only spiritual practice You’ll Ever Need and to get real comfortable putting on your villain Crown which is in my opinion the key to True power and then you’ll attune to your inner yes so you can live the life defined by the specific pleasure of who you are I am so excited to announce my latest book called The reclaimed woman which is available for pre-order now so if you head to the link in show notes you can learn more about bonuses events and companion offerings and I cannot wait to see your gorgeous face on the

(02:07) [Music] path I’m Dr Kelly Brogan you may know me as a New York Times bestselling author of a book with an exploding pill on the cover Renegade psychiatrist, pole dancer, or honorary member of the disinformation dozen what can I say I’m a born provocator I’ve spent most of my recent life exposing deceptions connecting dots and discovering the secret places my inner victim is still waiting to be liberated and now I feel called to help you reclaim all of your parts your health your sexuality your power and

(02:44) your expression so that you can finally truly own yourself I want to ignite in you that inner knowing and the pulsing Vitality that lives beneath your disempowerment disconnection and resentment so that you can audaciously courageously and playfully alchemize your struggle into the specific pleasure of who you are this is Reclamation radio a soulfire production the conversation that follows is from my sovereignty series living Library where you can find my most provocative discussions and my deepest effort to connect dots from homesteading

(03:22) to relationships to the shape of the earth and the nature of reality you can purchase the ongoing series at Kelly Brogan md.com and at the link show notes hi and welcome back to Reclamation radio I’m Dr Kelly Brogan and I am here today with Mark Gober who is a prolific truther author of many many important essential topics and there is one book that I want to focus on today which is called an end to upside down Liberty although he has an upside down collection you know there’s like many iterations on

(04:00) these themes that stem from a spiritual perspective on what it is that we are doing here and how it is that we can interface with what is for our own expansion and personal empowerment and I was telling Mark before we started that I really appreciate the way that he handles topics that over the past three years I’ve honestly like grown weary of I just I’m not interested in the dialectic any longer and that’s why I’ve shifted into a lot of the inner work right and focusing on what it is that we

(04:36) do have control over how it is that we can look in the mirror when we insist that things should be otherwise on the outside and yet I would like to dedicate you know this episode to one of the most powerful Frameworks for the solution that I have come upon and that is called voluntarism and so we will get to that first I want to take a little detour into the nature of the Beast if you will the nature of the problem and I sometimes talk about how it’s essential to develop intimacy with your no with your Fierce no with what is not working

(05:15) in your lifescape what you will not consent to and how we can hold awareness of that no as we really step into the yes and that’s what I think you do very masterfully Mark so welcome thank you for being in conversation with me well thank you for having me Kelly so I want to just Dive In The Deep End as I do and I want to ask you what your perspective is on and I know this could be yet another book what your perspective is on the last three years and the perhaps undisclosed intention of the agenda of what you know we can just summarize as

(05:55) the great reset what do you think is behind all of this right so obviously there are people who think there’s actually some sort of new illness some man-made bioweapon I mean there’s all sorts of different theories what do you think is going on in short I think we are in a spiritual war that’s the best way I can make sense of all the different data points but beyond that I’m not quite certain of all the details of what’s going on I mean generally we’re moving toward a direction where

(06:23) human Liberties are being infringed upon where we’re becoming less and less free and I should take a few steps back before 2020 I was not aware of these sorts of topics around Liberty this is pretty new for me I mean my first paradigm shift if you want to call it that was in 2016 around spiritual topics because I was a hardcore materialist I thought life was random and meaningless and I discovered that there was scientific evidence that contradicted my worldview so that was a pretty radical shift and it got to the point where I I

(06:55) was working in Silicon Valley I had become a partner at my firm and decided to leave my firm at the end of 2019 and was transitioning out as the pandemic was happening so I was in this interesting place where I was I had given myself space to explore topics that I was interested in but I didn’t realize I was going to be going down this more political Rabbit Hole of understanding what I think is systemic deception in the world that we live in so it’s like my first Paradigm Shift was around the basic nature of reality going

(07:22) from materialism to what some would call non-duality a spiritual worldview generally and then the second paradigm shift and I think within each of these Paradigm shifts there are sub Paradigm shifts that I probably haven’t even figured out yet but this other one around deception that we live in a world where the truth is not presented to us and in fact we’re presented with falsehoods seemingly everywhere so that’s the backdrop with which I started to evaluate what was happening in the world and the first red flag for me was

(07:50) I saw doctors being censored in early 2020 they were expressing opinions which on the surface seemed to be pretty benign like they were saying the problem was not as severe in hospitals as was being presented on the news for example and those doctors were being censored and taken off YouTube so I had seen this actually professionally I saw some corruption in the business world so I there I saw parallels there and then in my exploration of spirituality and the science of Consciousness I saw that scientists were being called pseudo

(08:22) scientists or being deplatformed or just maligned in the media and then it was like the same thing was happening around 2020 so that led me to want to explore what was happening and long story short it led me to want to understand the basic organization of our society politically and economically because at the time there was also a lot of political Strife around the election and I was trying to figure out where I stood on issues because I was coming from this newfound spiritual perspective and there was a huge divide in the quote

(08:52) unquote spiritual World some people were on one side others on the other side and I was finding myself very much on the pro Liberty side and then I was trying to understand what that meant so to answer your question briefly I think we’re generally we’re fighting for Freedom ultimately on a physical level but I think on a metaphysical level the bipartisan scope as it’s sometimes referred to right and you reference sort of finding yourself in this political Arena and then trying to orient almost politically right around your belief

(09:24) system that was fundamentally a metaphysical perspective it was absolutely of the the agenda right so I myself was characterized as like this prot Trump right-winger qanon fanatic when I have literally never once in my public career made a political statement ever once ever endorsing a candidate or anything along those lines and that layer of the dialectic right so sort of organizing these beliefs around one’s embodiment around one’s native you know sort of entitlements into partisan SE sectors is an easy bait to take right

(10:03) and so a lot of what you write about and you speak about is why and how government by its very nature can induce psychopathy right like why the structure of government itself is the problem and therefore the ways in which these seeming illusory different flavors of government is just a distraction right so I wonder if you can elaborate a little bit on the morality really at stake here because I know that that’s something that has come up for you and certainly has for me you know how is it that we are not asking a deep enough

(10:40) question around government itself as a structural entity as a ruling force and why that can set the conditions for you know otherwise well-intentioned people especially in a sort of pyramid scheme right well-intentioned people to participate in structures that that harm that damage and that fundamentally deceive you know so I wonder if you can elaborate a little bit about that sure well I think fundamentally this is about understanding what government is and often when we hear political discussions people are talking about the ways in

(11:16) which government should act and there’s this unspoken assumption that government is the way that we should do things in the world that’s the way we should structure Society so that led me to then explore philosophers who have questioned that basic assumption and it it starts with defining government which is something I had never even thought about I was beyond a political I just didn’t even care about political stuff but then we were thrust into this era where all of a sudden we had to have opinions and

(11:42) it was sort of like if you didn’t have an opinion then you were on one side or the other so I wanted to explore this to me government is an entity that can legally initiate aggression against an individual’s body or the property that he or she owns so let’s break that down because it’s kind of a simple topic but it’s very deep and if you haven’t thought about this before like I hadn’t as of a few years ago it’s it takes some unwinding because we’re so condition to believe that oh we have this benevolent

(12:10) government that takes care of us in society and if we didn’t have that would we do from a very early age so there’s conditioning to be Unwound here so government is a compulsory entity meaning it’s not one that we hired to provide services for us it provides lots of services that I would argue are important for soci soety like Roads Courts Legal Services military police it does lots of things that you probably want in society in some capacity but we have the government to do it and the government does it without our explicit

(12:43) consent and this is where the rub really is where typically with a service provider in other areas of society like I worked in Investment Banking and strategy Consulting where my firm would be hired by someone or if you’re at a law firm you get hired to provide a service and you typically have a contract that lays out what the service provider is going to provide and what the pricing structure is and what happens if the service provider fails to do the things it said it was going to do how it could be terminated you have that

(13:11) structure in place with government we have much more of an implied consent where you’re born into a certain jurisdiction certain territory and then you’re bound to the morality that the government sets for you but you didn’t necessarily consent to it and you could leave that jurisdiction but it’s not so simple because expatriation can be complicated you might owe taxes and you might just find yourself under a different ruler essentially so when you look at it that way there’s a realization that I’ve had that we’re

(13:40) born into a system where we’re not free automatically even though on an innate level we’re free we’re born into this compulsory system where we haven’t voluntarily and explicitly consented to what’s happening and that Cascades into lots of problems where this entity government also known as the state in political Theory generally can force you to do things that you didn’t ask for it can Define morality for you and if you don’t abide by that then you are immoral under the government’s eyes even though you might

(14:10) be moral in your own eyes and to me on a spiritual level that leads to all sorts of problems as well and you make the point that there are like this consensus around the implied benefic nature of government and how you know from tax collection to law enforcement to you know politicians and their roles in our lives there are Frank inversions right whether it’s extortion or murder or aggression and violence how these are sanctioned in this Arena I sort of find myself wondering has how many people have thought about that right that if

(14:47) it’s quote unquote legal for these agents these government agents to participate in what we in one Arena all agree is amoral behavior then why would it be illegal for us as citizens to participate in the same amoral behavior and this of course cognitive dissonance is something that is resolved through the passive sort of implied consent right that you reference yeah so government becomes an entity that has special privileges basically it’s an entity that can do things which a normal person or business

(15:19) could not do they would be regarded as criminals for example so let’s think about tax collection as a basic example where we pay taxes and regardless of the government’s performance it’s going to collect those taxes whereas if a normal business fails to perform for example it might go out of business or a customer might use a competitor with government it’s going to collect no matter what and if you don’t pay your taxes then they have a right to seize your assets or throw you in jail or whatever but money

(15:47) is a form of property so money is something that assuming it’s been earned in a legitimate manner through non-criminal means you’ve earned that money yourself and then the government is somehow entitled to it and you didn’t sign a contract saying you can do that so you could apply that to many other areas of society where the government can do things that a normal person wouldn’t be able to do so there’s this like inversion of morality where when the government does it it’s somehow benevolent even though it might be

(16:13) regarded as criminal in another arena with a normal entity or a normal just business relationship and it’s something that many of us haven’t even thought about before because it’s sort of like these are presumptions upon which we think about the Left Right debate and typically we’re arguing over what the role government should play in our lives is rather than questioning the basic existence of government itself right I call it throwing sand in their sandbox right when you don’t question deeply

(16:40) enough you end up just sort of playing around I mean it’s the same thing if you don’t question deeply enough around the nature of you know illness contagion infection you end up debating whether you know vitamin C or zinc or fish oil is better than PHA right but like what is the real matter at hand here so you write about some of the psychological experiments that have been publicized around the ways in which power can corrupt right so the ways in which otherwise decent people can find their inner Predator aggressor in the setting

(17:12) of of certain hierarchical conditions so what role do you think hierarchy itself plays in the generation of these you know amoral constructs if you will you think hierarchy is an issue there seems to be something about positions of power that can corrupt people otherwise good people and this has been something that I’m just trying to understand from a psychological standpoint I’ve written another book about the great reset where I talk about good people that end up supporting things that are ultimately

(17:39) harmful and I’m just trying to understand how this works and one of the ways people seem to be corrupted is when they are put in a position where they can legally control others and that’s essentially what government is you have an ability to unilaterally make decisions for other people you can tell them what risks they can take and we saw that a lot with covid in terms of telling people when they can leave their homes or whether whether their business was essential or not that was a third party making a decision for private

(18:03) individuals and the phenomenon of a psychopath is something I’ve been looking at a lot it’s not a pleasant topic but it’s it’s an important one to consider because I think most people are generally decent and it’s difficult I find for decent people to imagine what it would be like to be a human who lacks the capacity for empathy or love or even cares about those things and in fact deres pleasure from violating other people that these are basic qualities of a psychopath so if you accept that

(18:35) that’s a real phenomenon which even in traditional Psychotherapy that’s acknowledged as a real thing then having a platform where you can legally control other people would inherently be a magnet for that type of personality and that’s not to say that everyone in politics is a psychopath I’m just arguing that a platform is created with the state where it can unilaterally control people where that sort of Personality that loves power and control it would gravitate toward that so that’s one area I’m actually talking about the

(19:02) really evil stuff now but now to where good people can become corrupted because that’s maybe even more important because to me the masses are generally good and I talk about some of the mgrm studies from many decades ago where essentially good people would end up shocking a volunteer even though the volunteer wasn’t being shocked and the person didn’t know that when they were pressing a button to shock them but it’s really a study about obedience to Authority because in that experiment the person

(19:27) who was pressing the button to alleg ly shock someone was being told by an experimenter to keep doing it even though the person wasn’t sure if he or she should do it and the experiment would say no you should keep doing it and the person would just listen and that seems to be one of the big issues we have today where people obey Authority they might question it but they might not question it enough to say no and to really think for themselves and have independent critical thinking so that those milgrim studies are sort

(19:53) of microcosms of what seems to have happened throughout history but we’re seeing it now in I mean we to vaccination and lots of other things where people sort of end up in a herd mentality they’re listening to an authority figure and they don’t question it yes and a lot of what I have been interested in as I’ve explored the same topic essential topic which is like how do we each relate psycho emotionally psychos spiritually to what is being asked of us right is through the lens of childhood trauma right and when we

(20:23) partify these authority figures in a given hierarchical structure how we meet our fundamental needs for Safety and Security approval and connection is going to be dictated by our childhood experience right so either we are going to rebel and fight right which is a lot of my programming in response to you know this outside Authority or comply and Obey because that’s all that was you know tolerated in a given childhood setting can explain why I think a lot of us respond in different ways but often from a similar woundology right and in

(21:01) the activism space I’m sure you would agree there are many who are fighting the man fighting the power and who want truth liberty and justice for all but don’t seem to be in any meaningful way contributing to Solutions and maybe even are participating in what I refer to as the erotic caress of the enemy this near obsessive fixation on what this obviously greater power than they is up to right and and always in this reactive dance trying to you know Sound the Alarm all the time and how in many ways that is you know no different than

(21:41) complying energetically in my opinion anyway so there’s you know even as a psychiatrist sort of like the narcissistic Psychopathic Spectrum I think sometimes what’s missing from that conversation is just the ways in which we meet our needs either directly through claiming them right because even for a psychopath so-called psychopath and you know I believe many of us in certain conditions right as you’re demonstrating with the mgrm experiments are capable of Untold evils right so how could that be if we’re all good people

(22:12) how are we capable of this well we have different ways of meeting our needs and they’re either direct claim or they’re covert in the case of codependents and Rescuers and caretakers and all of those good boys and girls you know who are good citizens they’re still meeting their needs just in a more socially acceptable way right so you write a lot of amazingness in this book and end to upside down Liberty around something that’s been of great interest to me which is the structural ways that are

(22:42) baked in to the way that government communicates with the populace to influence these people who are more susceptible I guess to the compliance side of things right so whether that is Frank mind control MK Ultra program you know whether it’s social media education you know these false flags that are publicized and you know the way that agendas can be hidden of course behind distracting matters you know distracting issues like you know climate change and uh of course what we’ve been through recently around public health so we’ll

(23:19) pause here for a message from our sponsor my membership Community vital life project so if you want to hang with me ask me questions in live coaching get free access to my master classes curated content discounts and to the incredible humans that I attract my membership vital life project is where it’s at it’s the only membership of its kind and you’ll shed your struggle transform your victim story and level up your Reclamation game with others who get it join at the linkoln show notes and at Kelly Brogan md.com so I’d love for you

(23:51) to sort of maybe take us on a a little tour of what you think you’ve learned around the most Insidious ways that government influences the psychology of the public and you know then I would like to sort of transition into like how do we wake up how do we resist you know as a mother one of the concerns that I have every day is like you know if my children are exposed to the internet am I feeding them you know to the machine how do I arm them as warries you know like what does that even look like because of the way that most of us are

(24:26) just being able to perceive when deception is at play and feel it in our bodies so yeah I’d love for you to talk a little bit about what you think are are some of the most powerful ways that unsuspecting people are influenced by government tactics well I think it starts at a young age with the education system where certain biases are effectively implanted and it might come from innocent teachers who don’t even realize that they are propagandizing students but there is from a young age this mentality that government is the

(25:00) mommy daddy figure that is there to take care of us in various ways which as you mentioned appeals to various parts of our psychology depending on where we are and that it is a benevolent organization that is there to take care of us and if we didn’t have it then I mean the fact that we have it and we have this amazing democracy is such a good thing and that’s not to say that we haven’t Advanced as a society in certain ways we we definitely at least in America we we’re Freer than other societies have

(25:24) been so there might be hints of Truth to what is explained to people but the underlying programming is there within education and to take some extreme examples people often reference the Hitler youth program where I mean we don’t like to compare ourselves to that in America but there are elements of propaganda within our own system here as well and we’ve seen what that can do in other places but also the media is really becoming maybe always has been and I and many of us are waking up to it now including myself is it really

(25:53) programs us with what to think about the world it tells us what’s happening in the world and what to focus on as if those are the main events and we’re just supposed to assume that because the news presents us with those things that that’s what we should be focusing on and that we should be listening to The Experts so in essence what I’m talking about is a flow of information that we’re being presented with and it’s being presented in a very specific Manner and you mentioned MK Ultra I

(26:18) think this is a really important topic because it speaks to a level of sophistication in the way that information is presented so MK Ultra is a now declass class ified program from decades ago regarding mind control and using all sorts of Nefarious tactics like psychedelics and forms of torture to be able to mess with people’s minds and it stems probably even goes before this but people often reference Operation Paperclip where Nazis were brought into the United States for various reasons but they had knowledge

(26:52) the Nazis had knowledge in terms of how to torture people and all sorts of other things so they were brought into the US and those programs experimentation on humans has been going on for a long time but on a mass scale with the media we could see that at least that’s my my opinion is that there are parallels between some of the torture applied to individuals within MK Ultra that can relate to what goes on with the media in terms of bringing about fear that seems to be a major pattern and the journalistic work of project Veritas has

(27:21) revealed this very clearly many things that many of us probably knew where for example a CNN technical director was filmed without his knowledge talking about how fear sells and that was one of the major things they were pushing with Co and he said when Once the public is open to it and Co slows down we’re going to do the same thing with climate we’re going to keep putting people in a state of fear so to me having studied some of the MK Ultra stuff I think there’s a parallel there because with fear in an extreme sense

(27:47) people can actually develop dissociative identity disorder where they develop multiple personalities and those personalities can be controlled and sometimes the person doesn’t even know that they have those personalities but on a mass scale if fear is being brought about through the media and maybe even through the education system too what is that doing to create many dissociations and many openings for the control system to be able to steer Consciousness in a desired Direction absolutely and I’ve actually come to I don’t know if you’ve

(28:15) come to this extreme a conclusion but that any International media making event is staged is is theatrics to this end and this is where the question of whether or not we are engaged in this spiritual war and what is the nature of it is it US versus them right A lot of people in our circles talk about this T capital T they you know like who are they and again like I have become more interested in the ways that that war exists within me and how I can address the whole of fractal nature of it right so it’s going on here as it is you know

(28:49) without and when you talk about fear and I would sort of put that in the context of victim Consciousness and and how powerfully distorting and pathological that state of thought and being and emotional resonance that accompanies that state can be right and so I’m sure you’ve heard the phrase Louch right and so like when we are in this Mass formation around fear and victim Consciousness is that energy being sourced right are we being farmed for it is this you know one big loou ritual and is that the way that you reclaim

(29:29) yourself and you win the game right you win the war is by recognizing your own participation in a poor me this sucks I hate everything they have to change I have no power I must fight you know the big bad entity outside of myself and so to that end you know one of the most I think empowering tactics is to intentionally focus our attention out of that realm right so how can we as you know Bucky Fuller says you know focus on creating the world that renders the problematic obsolete right well he doesn’t say exactly that but that’s my

(30:08) paraphrase and that is where a lot of the ways that you present this concept of Beyond government into voluntarism I think is it just feels like the ultimate chess move right like it feels like yes this is where we we can play and feel good about actually accessing our Creative Energy rather than the victim field so you know for those listening who haven’t heard of this concept I’d love for you to give sort of a one1 on voluntarism and some of its tenants around property and private contract and non-aggression I know that you also

(30:47) bring to it a more spiritually informed perspective than might be otherwise accessed in you know some of the libertarian Realms which is you call non-dualistic voluntarism right and so I’d love to just sort of explore that and feel into what is possible when we begin to rid ourselves of some of the assumptions that we’ve made that the state knows how to do pretty much anything better than the private sector sure well first I want to say that there is a balance with all of this stuff in terms of identifying the problem but

(31:20) then not getting sucked into it where there’s this victim mentality that you so eloquently point out so there’s a fine line with all of this because I do notice some people just don’t want to look at the darkness and it’s like a spiritual bypass and I don’t advocate for that either so it’s like there’s a desire at least in my own process to want to understand the truth and to share it to the extent that I learned something but not to be sucked into it as a victim just to understand this is

(31:43) the reality that we live in this is the truth of our existence and honestly Mark I’ll interrupt you just to point out that as somebody who’s like increasingly sensitive to the feeling of another person you know relative to their words that’s why I think you’re such an important Ambassador because I can feel in my body when I talk to you that you can hold right you can emotionally hold what it is that you’ve seen and it doesn’t destabilize you and you can command your gaze in the direction that

(32:15) you choose right so that is such an empowering template for us right because I don’t feel like when you look at what is I feel you stay with yourself right there’s not this sort of like hysterical destabilization that I’ve witness so often in the activism field that is it just propagates and perpetuates itself right so obviously to be able to look at what is and the tremendous catacombs of Darkness that all these rabbit holes take you to there’s a certain level of emotional Mastery that’s required right

(32:47) because otherwise you just get brought back to your seven-year-old you know experience of being you know spanked or yelled at or whatever and you feel disempowered and helpless and I don’t feel that going on right like when you talk about what’s up I feel you can look at it with a degree of adult dispassion right and so obviously getting there is easier said than done for a lot of us right so I appreciate absolutely and totally agree that holding you know in Psychology it’s called the mixed object

(33:17) holding you know the good and the bad holding the possible and the horrible at once you know I I do think it looks in many ways like the way that you present it so yes so carry on okay well appreciate that and it has been a process for sure because my Quest from the beginning starting in 2016 to now has been to try to understand what is this world who are we why are we here and that means looking at the dark and the light and that means also when acknowledging the dark it’s not to be hysterical about it but it is just to

(33:45) raise awareness but it’s a very important distinction because as you point out people can go off the rails that happens too so now on to Solutions because that’s ultimately what I am thinking about for myself and then I like to share it and volunt ism is the term that I use in the book sometimes in other circles it goes by the term anarchism which can be triggering for some people and also anarco capitalism but it’s effectively the same idea and it’s a very simple concept which is just abiding by the non-aggression principle

(34:16) and the non-aggression principle is the idea that no person should initiate aggression of any kind against another person’s body or their material property that they own and aggression could be physical violence fraud coercion extortion anything like that and also if someone initiates aggression against you and your property you have a right to self-defense that’s the whole system that’s it and if you apply that then you realize wait a second government violates the non-aggression principle inherently because it can initiate

(34:47) aggression against you and your property legally and money is one obvious example but all over the place it can do things that you didn’t consent to so what I talk about in the book is I’m really like I in many of my books I am amalgamating the research of many philosophers who have thought about this for many years before I have so there is a realm in the economics field known as Austrian economics which looks at basically how does the world function without government because they’re typically and I I studied economics I

(35:17) was an undergrad at Princeton I actually started off in the economics department and I switched out because I just something didn’t click with me something sounded too theoretical and then I ended up moving into psychology and looking at behavioral economics but it’s interesting now looking back maybe the reason I didn’t stick with economics is that they in traditional economics they’re thinking about how can the government steer our world there’s that presumption built into it rather than

(35:40) asking the question should the government be doing that so within the Austrian School of Economics there’s often this application of the non-aggression principle how could we function as a society theoretically without this government structure that’s there in a compulsory manner that we didn’t sign a contract with explicitly asking it to do all these things so so the question then arises people might often say well like who would build the roads that’s the first question well who builds the roads now human beings do

(36:05) they just do it under the umbrella of government so it’s somehow when people say the word government it’s all it’s almost like you can exhale because it’s going to get taken care of even though it doesn’t have a financial incentive to do so doesn’t even make sense when you break it down because if a normal company fails to perform it goes out of business the government continues to function so all of the government functions whether it’s Road servicing court systems police these could be done

(36:28) a private manner meaning you would have companies that offered this service and individuals within Society pay them to perform those functions and typically what happens when you have that kind of a free market where there’s an entrepreneurial incentive to provide services is that you end up with Creative Solutions that you might not even be able to conceive of beforehand and that’s how the marketplace operates today is that companies come up with things that no one thought of and then they get paid for it if they’re

(36:55) servicing customers appropriately so just let’s take the police force as an example you could easily have police services in a private manner first of all people have private security today they’re private companies that provide security but there are lots of inefficiencies with the government and police so they might not allocate their police force efficiently they might have too many policemen in and women in one place and not enough in another place and what is the corrective mechanism for that well if you had a private market

(37:23) for it then the people that are demanding that service they’re going to to allocate the resources of the police force efficiently based on who’s demanding what for example so effectively what you get whether it’s police force or any other service is people voting with their dollars and that creates a level of efficiency where there is demand based on what the people want and then the suppliers the entrepreneurs effectively have to produce in order to meet that demand and then things will work out as they may

(37:52) now what I just said there is often problematic for many people because what I’m arguing is I don’t know exactly how would play out whereas with government we can say well we’re going to have the police force we’re going to have the courts this way and it’s sort of set in stone it might shift a little bit but people can often exhale because they think the government’s just going to take care of it whereas when you have this free market system it is a bit more chaotic in one sense and that you don’t

(38:14) know exactly how it’s going to play out but to me that leads to more creativity and it allows for these voluntary exchanges rather than legalized coercion and it’s again you know when I mean it’s just such an opportunity to behave as adults and to not assume that Mommy and Daddy are going to take care of it and what happens when we are expected to behave as an adult I believe and I imagine you do too is not what we’ve been programmed to anticipate which is like we’ll devolve into like raping and

(38:43) pillaging you know it’s in fact that we become our most trustworthy selves right that when we reclaim our agency when we behave as if we have power that we would otherwise have been divested of there is an organizing principle that is activated and that is because adults are then interacting with adults men are interacting with men and women right and the reflexive questions right about the roads and of course like you know one of my first questions was well I have a deep understanding of why many people

(39:13) behave irrationally right and myself included and what happens right when there’s a dispute like who do you run to right who who manages it what about the court system and of course you know as you look into the legal Veil that we’ve been captured behind I mean you recognize that this is not something you want to participate in anyway right so like what is the solution and I think you’re right to acknowledge that we don’t know how it would look because I don’t know if you know in at least

(39:44) recorded history there has been this maturation of society into this place of you know individual responsibility for each our own boundaries and you know sort of interaction with each other through private contract so I wonder you know how you and not that you have to have an answer to this question but how you envision like is there a bridge right so it’s not like we’re gonna have like a voluntarist candidate right so like how do we transition I actually believe as I imagined you to too that there is a Spiritual Development that is

(40:21) required as a prerequisite for this to even take hold let alone manifest into reality and I also believe that things are accelerating right and have accelerated so what might have taken us as a collective spiritually and evolutionarily you know I don’t know many decades hundreds of years who knows oh we could be there next year right like I I believe that’s possible so like how is it just a matter of planting the seed now in everybody’s heart around this possibility because I know when I hear about it it just makes sense right

(40:54) it just makes sense like we are growing up Beyond mommy and daddy’s curfews and rules and you know abuse field so is it a matter of just spreading the word or how do you sort of see the activation of this concept into some sort of lived reality one of the big challenges here is that we’re not starting from a clean slate with Society where we’re saying okay we get to choose do we want to have statism or we have compulsory government or we going to choose voluntarism we’re starting with statism we’re under the

(41:25) state rule whether we like it or not so that’s the status quo and to shift away from that would be to shift from the status quo and that I think requires even more energy to go to something new my view on how we get there is first of all I don’t know but I think it starts with Consciousness always is we have to Envision it first and get to the basic principles and acknowledge the problems with the current system and then things will shift as people start to recognize that we live under coercive system and

(41:52) they might start to say no more often but more generally I think there are these two parallel paths that we could see happening the first one is less likely which is that the government itself starts to collapse from within where let’s say very libertarian voluntarist type candidates get elected and they start to abolish parts of the government I just think that’s really hard to Envision because of the amount of corruption that we have in the government and I don’t know how easy it would be for them to actually get

(42:17) elected and Implement that sort of thing but in theory we could have people that are very principled within government and start to make government better smaller and more decentralized the one that I’m more optimistic about is basically people becoming voluntarists on their own somehow in parallel to statism and we’re already seeing a bifurcation in society where it’s like people are living in different realities and to me the basic line is around this idea of freedom generally speaking it might take different flavors but that

(42:45) seems to be the dividing line those who want freedom and those who want to listen to Authority and think Authority should tell everyone what to do so those who are more freedom oriented I think it inevitably leads you down into to voluntarism I don’t know how it can lead anywhere else if you go down that rabbit hole because it is the most morally consistent system even though it’s theoretical and like you say it just makes sense so how would that play out I don’t know maybe people will start to organize themselves if there’s a

(43:11) critical mass of people where they end up with a large land mass and there can be private law within that land mass or some there’s a way to people figure out Creative Solutions but it starts with the acknowledgement that the existing system is extremely problematic and that if we want to be free physically and spiritually we have to move to something else so this also gets to an important topic with regard to activism and everything this philosophy of non-attachment that’s been a really big one for me in my personal Journey which

(43:41) is not how I used to be if you knew me before this is like a complete 180 of being passionate about what I’m doing and really caring but not being attached to what the ultimate outcome is not being fixated on the way that I think it should be not being bound to my desires or my own fears but trying just to do what’s right and then the outcome is going to be beyond my control on one person so that’s really the philosophy that it imbued lots of my work but especially this book because it is so far out to think about a world without

(44:09) government and private law and and just private contracts but it is in principle I think the right way to go and who knows what happens if we all start to think differently yeah I refer to the you know that Chinese Parable this maybe principle right this idea that what we think is exactly what we want could lead to the most challenging of struggles right and what we think is exactly what we don’t want could be the only path to our greatest fulfillment and I mean of course we’ve we’ve seen that in our own

(44:42) lived experience right having look back on one you know adverse experience you’ve had and know its fruit right like so we know that as individuals and what it could look like as a collective and and really the hubris involved in a lot of activism which is I know know how it should be right like you who are you what look at your life your life is a mess you know how it should be right so I I love the way you hold it because there is something that feels so right about again this maturational step in our Collective growth and development

(45:18) and how we get there if we get there will be an organic unfoldment from the desire right however that looks and to hold that desire means that you’re not necessarily holding as strongly the rejection the fear you know this sort of this feeling of being captured in a place that you hate right like that so many of us can get in our Awakening process can get stuck in so I I love that because if we knew exactly how we would get there then probably right it would be an extension of more of the same of what it is that we’re involved

(45:53) in it’s like you know in The Hunger Games or whatever if you’ve seen if you’ve seen that predictive programming you know where where the you know the revolutionaries end up creating the same exact thing you know that they were set out to destroy and how often does this actually happen because of the nature of hierarchical systems and the vacuums that they create to be filled amazing so I wonder just personally on that note what are you choosing to focus your energy on these days you know like how

(46:24) do you there’s a lot that you’ve uncovered I too am a converted scientism materialism cult member and probably even more deep in the belly of the Beast than than you ever were in the medical cult so I know what that sort of Journey can look like archetypally even and it sounds like you’re in this place of really feeling the creative power that you have and the responsibility that you have to direct it in a certain way so I wonder just even on the daily like how are you focusing what are you into these

(46:57) days what’s alive for you are you focusing on you know like Jiu-Jitsu and raising your golden retriever or are you focusing on you know like setting up a new land mass to grow a voluntary Society you know sort what’s what are you into these days yeah my process has been so weird where I get hooked on a topic I become obsessed with it I research it then I realize oh there’s a book to be written and then it’s all I care about and then when the book comes out it’s almost like it’s part of my

(47:22) past and I I don’t identify with it it’s strange it’s not that I don’t care about it but I I care much less than I did when I was writing it and that’s happened now five times in a short period yeah it’s it’s happened pretty quickly but having left my job I’ve had more space to be able to do this sort of thing so I have a book that came out recently on the great reset and so that one’s behind me now and I’m in this place again where I care about but I sort of don’t care about it anymore I

(47:47) don’t know what’s next this has happened every time after each book but my general trajectory and I talk about this in the Liberty book of lines of development Ken Wilbur’s framework waking up cleaning up and growing up and in the new book I also talk about showing up setting boundaries and saying no to things that are clearly evil that’s really important too and that’s how I think about my life in a general fashion so there’s the waking up spiritually trying to get to that state of Enlightenment generally that’s a

(48:13) whole other topic but trying to move in that more spiritually evolved Direction then there’s cleaning up which is never ending working on our own inner darkness and Trauma and healing that’s a really important thing and I think it manifests differently for each of us but there can be a tendency to Spirit bypass that part of it and then growing up maturation accepting reality for what it is taking personal responsibility so I’m I’m moving in that direction philosophically I don’t know how it’s going to manifest

(48:38) exactly but I have been playing more tennis these days I was a competitive athlete growing up and in college as well so I’ve been doing more of that and just enjoying it in a way that I didn’t appreciate when I was kind of burnt out doing it almost as a job with school and everything so there’s an aspect of that that I’m appreciating in a new way I don’t know if that’s going to that’s just coming up to say at the moment and enjoying the the competition of it even though it’s I do it casually these days

(49:04) just getting back into that really competitive mindset is something I enjoy but I mentioned the two Paradigm shifts before the one away from materialism and the other is around understanding deception evil The Duality there’s so many paradigms within those two categories that I haven’t even explored yet and I’m still I’m really not clear on what this place is that we’re in I think if you were I would end the interview now okay yeah okay but I’m I’m more confused the more I learn let’s

(49:34) I’ll put it that way I’m becoming less and less sure of what everything is and it’s like to what extent are we evolving out of this place to what extent are we escaping maybe they’re one and the same I mean in the Eastern Traditions they talk about getting out of the cycle of birth and rebirth getting out of The Reincarnation cycle so those sorts of questions like trying to understand the Nuance of that who are the beings that seem to be involved in the near-death experience and in reincarnation which

(50:00) I’ve written about there are other forms of intelligence that exist and are interacting with our world and I’m I’m very confused on how it all works yes I think confusion is one of the most fertile States and one of the hardest to capacitate on a nervous system level literally like to sit in the uncertainty to sit in confusion and to enjoy its yield is something that I don’t know has taken me many decades to even begin to expl floor right so it’s just that Lial space between what is no longer and what

(50:32) is to be and if we can’t sit in it and we must grasp for the knowing you know like we end up you know just sort of collapsing ourselves back into the old place and I love what you’re saying about tennis because I think that it is one of the signs of personal Reclamation when we feel safe enough to play again I actually think it’s a Hallmark of adulting because otherwise wise right like it’s like that little piece of your you know I was a trained ballerina too and and dance for me these days is a

(51:04) totally different thing even though it might look similar with my pointed Toes or whatever to enjoy it as an adult can only really happen if there is an energy of Consciousness in your body that says I’m here now like you’re okay right we’re we’re good and you can play it’s it’s safe to do so so I love hearing that and I I do think it’s part of this journey of reclamation so I love this conversation I want to thank you for bringing you know whatever is alive for you because when you do and as you ride

(51:35) the waves of your own process you know you’ll find yourself attracting those who needed you to to speak truth in just this particular way that just that particular time and so I love these conversations for that reason and more so thank you Mark thank you KY I really enjoyed it