(00:00) Marry someone who can give you a better life than you can give yourself. I’m pretty sure the oldest dream in your heart is probably to get married and not necessarily to living alone in a walk up and go to a job every morning. It’s so familiar to me the bitterness, the resentment. Dedicating your life force to orienting towards men.
(00:18) There comes a point where you recognize it’s costing you to talk about love has become hostile. I dropped a lot of those new age attitudes. They weren’t helping me. And so I restored more of my origin religion. I do believe in committing to trusting God. I encourage women to get really mad about what has been stolen from us because it has been stolen.
(00:41) We are so much more powerful than we allow ourselves to realize. Where do you position all of the feminist programming and how do you regard it at this stage? I think that Hi and welcome back to Reclamation Radio. I am Dr. Kelly Brogan and today I have on Amy Loftus, singer, songwriter, actress turned coach in support of helping women to escape culture capture and all of the feminist programming that has left us confused and unmarried.
(01:19) So she specifically states that her mission is to help women get married. And to that end, we explore many of the reframes, including how to speak to men, how to initiate a date with a man, and how to become softer, quieter, to slow down, and to focus on yourself and your connection to your higher power rather than the vigilance, surveillance, strategy, and micromanagement of the codependent. Enjoy. Welcome Amy to the show.
(01:54) Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I’m thrilled to be here. It’s delightful to dive into this hot topic with a woman who has walked seemingly a very different path from my own and come to what I can ascertain are exactly the same conclusions. these very very simple, elegant even truths, if I could use that word, about what it is to be a woman, what it is to receive the love that we have been yearning for since we have been little girls and what our role is in securing the kinds of relational dynamics and dare I say the marriage
(02:40) dynamics, the marital dynamics that support that experience of truly feeling cherished and loved as women. And you and I have also come to some relatively controversial conclusions about women’s business and men’s business, right? That there is a natural segregation therein and the best reason to even interest yourself in that is so that you can have the experience that you want, right? It’s not some sort of benevolent altruistic thing that you’re offering to the men of the world. It could be, but it’s really so that you can have the experience that you want. So, I I don’t normally do the whole tell
(03:22) me about yourself and your how you got here thing. Uh because when I listen to podcasts, I almost always want to just jump to the, you know, the juice. In your case though, I think it’s it’s really powerful to learn about your journey as a woman because there’s some archetypal elements that I relate to.
(03:42) There’s archetypal elements that I think a woman who has seen herself perhaps to the pinnacle or at least is climbing up the mountain of what achievement, success, productivity, external validation, independence, and self-sufficiency can yield.
(04:06) Right? Perhaps she’s just starting to feel the rattle, right? Like of of her soul. She’s just starting to feel like, is this it? like, do I just do this forever? Do I just like continue to chase, you know, the oasis on the horizon? Uh, or is it time for a grand pivot? And, you know, that pivot is what you and I have both experienced. And you’ve written a book about it called Eve’s Second Chance.
(04:31) I know you normally um your your tagline was that you help women get married, which I love. and it is such an extraordinary um summary of the insights and the tips and your journey that I am so delighted you know to be talking to you about this. So I’d love to start there and just hear you know like how do you talk about your journey as a woman to arrive at this place where you are writing a book and talking about you know how to be a wife on public stage like how did you get here? What were the plot twists? It’s funny when I look back like who I really am. I was just one of
(05:10) those people that was friends with everybody when I was young and I like I just want everybody to get along and I want everybody to feel love and fulfillment and I found myself at 36 like why do I want that for everyone but myself classic codependent. Yes. And that was the that was sort of the my trip down to the deep desire that I wanted my own experience of love and marriage.
(05:39) I mean, I realize not every woman is going to like discover that she has a singing voice and go to Nashville and write a bunch of songs and do all the things that I did, which I liken to Forest Gump. Like when I couldn’t get a record deal, I was like, “Okay, I was Forest Gump. I just got in a car and put my guitar in the back and made an independent CDs and sold them.
(05:59) ” And so I was independent and it was like scrappy and it wasn’t very glamorous, but I came close. I think that I was supposed to come close to the glamour and to uh the potential that I might have reached. I also taught yoga for a long time. I taught private yoga. I taught in castles to prominent people. So I got these glimpses of achievement and I used it to continue to seek that.
(06:25) But I was growing more and more um isolated. I was alone. I wasn’t sharing my feelings. I felt shame for the desires that I had, which I think is a terrible predicament many women are in. I define shame as that acronym should have already mastered everything. Like I barely have dated, but I should be a master of how to be a wife. You know, that was like what I was feeling.
(06:52) And so I just began to I mean I it took I I tell women regularly you can volunteer for inner work or you can get pushed to it. And sadly I was not a volunteer. And I had a couple of terrible events that caused me to just stop and finally hear and and listen to people who had reflected things to me.
(07:18) It was like kind of came rushing in and it just led to a different a completely different path. And it’s weird, but I I’ve just been like I I write every morning and I’ve written most of my life just handwriting and I teach women to to uh do that. You know, I just think that it’s a significant part of recovering yourself.
(07:38) And so it’s just through that that I’ve gotten to this place. Like it’s just like I’ve handwritten my way into and I feel like it’s God talking to me. It’s like yes, help women who are maybe whispering to their closest friend or maybe not what they really really want. And I never thought that I would get to a place where I am treated like I don’t know what.
(08:08) Like I’m I’m talking about something horrible to give people a permission slip to to get married and to honor that desire in their heart. I mean, it’s unbelievable. The Tik Tok kind of covers some of your mean comments, which I like. It’s like I just said, you know, I I said I put a little clip up something like I’m pretty sure the oldest dream in your heart is probably to get married and not necessarily to be like I want to live it alone in a walk up and go to a job every morning and leave all my own bills, all my own grocer. Yes. And not have any help. And and I
(08:38) mean the comments were like it was unbelievable. It’s like, oh wow. Like it’s gotten hostile to talk about love has become hostile. And I just Pat, Dr. Pat Allen, who trained me. I see it as I see it. I was seeking help for my own life, but it it helped train me to to help other women.
(08:58) And she used to say, “Marry someone who can give you a better life than you can give yourself.” And the idea of just simply relaxing into a better life, which took me a while. I mean, I’ve been with my husband for 13 years. I probably spent the first five years still really captured simultaneously making albums and trying to seek clinical help to have a a baby on a which I wasn’t able to do.
(09:23) And I mean I was still like I was married and I was still fighting receptivity. My husband recently told me like it’s so different. His experience of me is different than when we first got married and it was wild to just listen to him and be like wow I have it. It’s a process. That’s why you you need your whole marriage, you know, you need decades.
(09:46) It’s like that line Julia Roberts said, if you want to be in an interesting relationship, stay like just stay, you know, and then and then you have this process for growing and growing together and learning this this flow which I consider a a soul collaboration. And so, yes, I do talk about biological realities that lend the way to masculine and feminine energies. I believe that words matter.
(10:16) It’s as an actress, I learned that a dialect was a behavior. So, if you were going to do, you know, a sort of upper class British lady or whatever, I can’t do it. But, you know, if you were going to talk like that, it was largely because of the behavior too of that person that you were playing.
(10:35) And so and so it is with words and behavior and and masculine and feminine energies like to say I get this sense is different than I think I want. It’s it’s way it’s irrational which is feminine energy and it’s a complement to rational or masculine directive energy. And if we can get past the triggers which I’m so grateful to you for having me so we can talk about this and hopefully help some people past the triggers. It’s like this is great stuff.
(11:03) It’s amazing stuff. It makes for a life full of laughter and joy and experiencing each other and loving and feeling and being I think what we’re supposed to be which is together. I don’t think people are built to be alone and isolated. Couldn’t agree more. It’s so interesting.
(11:29) I was watching actually a video Tik Tok about this gal who’s married, right? and she’s like, “Oh, I have the pink jobs and my husband does the blue jobs around the house.” And I thought it was really fantastic. And then I I watched this whole video. And I thought, “Well, I [ __ ] do all the all the pink and the blue jobs myself.” Like, how is this a goal? How is this a goal? And so that gaslight that we have allowed to be run on us as women that says, “If I can control, manage, and handle everything, right?” Because the light side of my life as a single woman is that everything is on my terms.
(12:02) Everything, my whole house, every little detail of the of the decor, the schedule of the meals, what’s in the fridge, what’s going on in the closet. Right? So that is the seeming light side. And then the the shadow of course is that I am steeped in this um lack of receptivity, lack of support and the uh experience of historical relationships as making my life more complicated rather than easier. Right.
(12:32) So, like you said, what is it to invite dynamics where you exhale as a woman, where your system relaxes and where you actually have an easier life than you had outside of the relationship. That is the antidote to love addiction, right? To uh the experience that so many of us have of codependency where we’re chasing an experience where we’re helping men and where we imagine that we know better how everything should be. That’s totally exhausting and definitely complexifies your life.
(13:05) So I imagine that you’ve had relationships that where you brought intimacy interfering behavior to bear, right? And made it impossible for that relationship to actually nurture you and bring you that experience of joy and ease that you’re referencing. I have a lot of references of what not to do.
(13:28) And then you transitioned and I I would love for you to talk a little bit about also manifesting and experientially praying for if that’s what I don’t know what you would call it your current partner and then somehow you figured out how to get into your own lane as a woman and I know Dr. Pat Allen played quite a role in that re-education, but what would you say are some of the the major points of transition, like things that you used to do and thought were just how it’s done and now the things that you’re committed to as as a wife and a woman? Well, I went from a new age place to I dropped a lot of those new age attitudes. They weren’t uh working for me anymore. They weren’t helping me. And so I restored
(14:14) more of my origin religion and or and it it it was that was a long trip. It’s not like I I switched from new age to back to my origin religion, but that was definitely a component of it. And I’m still participating in religious experience and community with a level of a a different outlook because it’s impossible to sort of restore what I came from because I studied so many different modes and studied so many different religions. And so it’s like I can’t really unlearn everything. But I do believe in in
(14:51) committing to trusting God and and surrendering to God as opposed to being God, which is kind of what I was doing. I I mean, I would have called it like I’m surrendered, but it was this new age thing. I’m like I say to women, manifestation makes you a man. That’s what Dr. Pat used to always say. And it does.
(15:13) I mean, when I started praying for my husband, it the first thing I had to admit was he exists. He’s a person. He has a license in his wallet. He’s on a run. He’s getting a tank of gas. Because I was so, I guess, spiritually immature or somewhat naive that the manifestation mindset was like, I have to conjure him up.
(15:39) I have to sit here and fold my legs in a certain way. And I mean all that stuff is just gone. It’s behind me. And most of my life now is I mean I do have commitments and I have spiritual structure which I believe in the power of spiritual structure.
(15:59) I believe in the power of being suspicious, uncomfortable and going anyway whether that’s 12step or a religion or just some form of undoing self-will. And what happens when you participate in something like that is you can you learn to hold opposing viewpoints or opposing feelings at the same time. You develop stamina and you become emotionally mature and that trains you on the inside to be able to have a capacity to be in a relationship.
(16:24) It changes so much and it’s what it takes to be married, you know, to sit there and go, I love you. I don’t like this thing that you’re doing all at once. It trains you to be a great parent, too, by the way. So this was stuff like I pivoted and shifted from into that so quickly because Pat was just like she was so cut and dry. I mean she was a not everybody could hear her but I could I could and she would just is she would tell me things like do everything that I’m telling you to do and you’ll be married and you’ll be engaged in 2 years. And I was less than
(16:54) 2 years and I didn’t want to do really anything that she was telling me to do. It was so altering and it was just all giving up control. I was so needy and I was so controlling and I just had to let all that go and just be a human being among among human beings. And it’s it gets really simple like what I’m teaching is practical spirituality and just behavioral shifts.
(17:20) I I I definitely encourage women to do process stuff to seek someone like you to, you know, deal with the big stuff, someone with letters after their name. I don’t have any of those. I’m just I’m like a I’m a you know I’m a coach. I’m a girlfriend. I I’m a st I’m also a standin. Like that’s a big thing that Pat was for me is she used to say I’m the mother man of your dreams.
(17:44) So that’s young Ian and that’s like Kelly could go into that very articulately. But the the bottom line is she was like a standin and it was like the way that I was behaving in any given moment was how I was going to behave with a with a husband where whenever he was to show up.
(18:02) So, if I was defiant and and ignoring her or lost, getting getting sort of drunk on emotion and feeling like a victim and wanting her to take care of my feelings, she would just remind me like that’s how I’m going to show up as a wife. And I would be like, whoa, do I want to do that? No. And so, it was an adjustment and I went and found solutions for how to deal with those things.
(18:20) So, it it’s a it’s a shift in that it’s literally becoming a wife. like I was a wife before I met my husband. I behaved like a wife and and this the very interesting thing is that I think it makes me sort of an antenna like to help others cuz I I don’t think my story is unique.
(18:45) I think it will happen for others in the same way that it did for me just their version you know like maybe a slightly different set dressing but similar principles. I was making choices that worked for me. Like I changed my work schedule. My afternoons were free. You know, I I was just doing all this stuff that was because I was like, what would a wife do? Like what what is that? And then when I met my husband and he was a parent, like all of his lifestyle things kind of fit into mine. It was almost eerie.
(19:16) Like I had just given up my Monday and Thursday evening classes and that those were the nights that he did not have his children. and just and afternoons were free. So I started picking them up when we realized that we were committed and gonna go for the long haul into marriage, you know. So I started picking up the kids after school.
(19:33) It was like they were choices I made long before I met him and I was praying for him knowing and trusting that God was going to put the right one in my life and then it just started to take form. And I think that women know how to do what I’m talking about. But it has been stolen from us.
(19:53) And I encourage women to get really mad about what has been stolen from us because it has been stolen. And and I encourage women to stop cooperating with agendas and ideology and futile movements that will prove to be absolute hogwash in time. I I encourage them to stop cooperating with that stuff and just to look inside and go, “What is it that I want the most? And how can I allow myself give myself permission to make choices and make changes that line up with that?” Because women know how to do that.
(20:23) We are so much more powerful than we allow ourselves to realize. I think you used a word, oh, gaslighting. I mean, I think that that’s a big thing that’s happened and and so many women have uh surrendered to that instead of surrendering to God or to at least start with a higher power of their understanding. I do believe in God.
(20:49) I read scripture and I meet people where they are. I’m not a missionary. I just sort of say what what is it? Where are you at? Without judgment. If they ask me about what I experience and do, I’ll tell them. But I am not interested in telling people like this is how you have to meet God.
(21:09) I just want them to experience their own path and find their way because I know what happened for me with people pushing the religion that I now participate in when it was pushed on me. It set me back for years. But when I came to it on my own, it made so much sense to me. So I just share the parts that make sense and I share the relief and just give permission.
(21:27) But I think that it starts with just being like, you know, seeking a relationship with a higher power and an understanding that makes sense to you. I have recorded I’ll link to it in show notes. I recorded an entire solo on how I perceive I talk about Christian women, but how I it could be any denominationally derivative religious women.
(21:52) how I perceive their experience of moving through the world relative to the willbased new age interaction with the universe that is encouraged as the spiritualist sort of remixed spiritualism option that we have if we’re not to be atheists. Right? So when I think about a woman who believes especially in a masculine energy deity who is holding her at all times, who is guiding her, there for her, protecting her, listening to her, approving of her, perhaps I experience her system as in surrender, right? Her system is exhaling and her energy is released into the feminine, right? it’s released into
(22:38) creative expression. She’s not in that problem-solving, you know, vigilant surveillance mode that most of the rest of us are. And so I I when I started to look at it through this lens, I started to feel like, wow, that’s really quite an advantage that I personally am not enjoying in my daily life of, you know, willbased interaction with sometimes a malevolent experience of the universe.
(23:05) This is probably back in the day more. But that’s like you know punishing or teaching me lessons or somehow you know uh rearing its ugly head in the form of things I don’t want. So when I hear you say I was practicing being a wife, you know, I see that that you cleared space in your life.
(23:32) You made more room for simplicity, softness, slowness, quiet, you know. And then I also hear that you prayed that that comportment towards the experience of what is is a submissive compartment. It’s it’s one that says, you know, I am here to receive from that which knows better. Right. Yes. Exactly. If that’s the start, that’s a worthy start. And vigilant surveillance, that is a great way to put it.
(24:06) That’s a state that a lot of women are in and and they’re in that state in a culture that pushes what is relationship addiction and calls it relationship goals. And so and that vigilant surveillance will just harden you. But yes, I prayed. I’ve always been a prayer. And to pray and to submit. So let’s cover that that word submit and submission and submissive all the forms of it that just lock women up and they get so triggered.
(24:35) And I love Lisa Bivir’s interpretation of the the verse in the Bible that talks about that because she talks about how the word the Latin root of the word submit is means to be under and how both members of a couple are under mission. You know submission is to be under a mission. And so he is too, you know, you both are you both make sacrifices. And that’s what I think needs to be restored.
(24:59) That’s one of the things that has been stolen is this. It’s been downloaded into women that this knee-jerk reaction that she’s the only one who has to do that submit, you know, being under a mission and he just gets to do whatever he wants and this is just so terrible for women. I mean, all the little sound bites that people reproduce. It’s not true. We’re actually it’s it’s a flow.
(25:22) It’s the eternity symbol. It’s just back and forth and back and forth. And you know, sometimes he has to do the thing and sometimes you have to do the thing and it’s a soul collaboration. And when we can coax women into restoring that and not carrying on this thing which I actually believe is very dark and declined by design and downright evil and and it it’s like I’ve been able to withstand a lot which is bananas cuz I’m such a baby and a people pleaser and a reluctant activist and but it’s like everything that’s happened in the last 5 years the position I took surprise even
(26:03) me, but it allowed me to see like what was really going on. And I don’t actually I get daggers that come at me, but I’m like, I know, I understand. I’m just here until you start to understand where the daggers need to be pointed, which is at the culture that has destroyed your perception of love and marriage.
(26:27) And when that happens, it’s fire because when you because in like in a matter of a couple of weeks, a woman can just drop a ton of things that are not fortifying her mindset at all. They’re actually destroying her life. And then it’s like easy to date. It’s easy to signal. It’s easy to just attract men. It’s easy to restore respect for men and to see where you might be afraid of men, hating them before you’ve even like had a conversation with them.
(26:54) I mean the vitriol that women experience as a result of the apps which I understand apps are triggering and and difficult the dating apps but when I experience women who are just so triggered from like DMs on apps it’s like oh sis you know like you don’t even know him and so we’ve got to be able to restore that compassion for that other human being over there young and and the enemous projection, right? Because we were talking before we started about some of the the trolling because I I mean, if you told me I’ve been a health freedom activist for 10 years prior to becoming somebody who has
(27:37) something to say about feminism and the agenda. I mean, if you told me that I would even be having this conversation with you 5 years ago, I would have been shocked. So, we find ourselves in this place. I I am exploring, you know, the trajectory and I actually think it has a lot to do with the father wound because when you’re at a place where you are ready to integrate your animus, right? You’re ready to to take in the bad daddy that is your, you know, masculine signature, you recognize that there’s no winning the war. And so blaming and
(28:08) fingerpointing and judging right that that uh vitriel you described I so familiar to me the bitterness the resentment you know really like dedicating your your life force to orienting towards men in this way you there comes a point where you recognize it’s costing you right it’s costing you your experience of safety in your own body uh in your relationships it’s costing you relational uh romantic sexual ual erotic, you know, um, vitality, and then you’re ready. And then you’re ready to look at it differently and to
(28:45) take responsibility and to consider the possibility that complimentary dynamics are the only way to coexist. And so I I do think the readiness to explore what it is to be a woman as separate from a man. What is your role is something that has a lot to do with with this inner journey of you know saying yes to your own father right taking in what um what he what he represents.
(29:15) But I want to I want to talk a bit more about what you referenced with regard to the devotional compartment that both members, if that’s the right word, of a marriage have towards something higher, right? Because in a lot of I think secular conditioning, we’re encouraged to get ours spiritually, right? So if your husband is serving, this is how I used to think about it anyway.
(29:39) If your husband is is serving your own growth and development, then he gets to be your husband. But if for some reason you have grown beyond or if for some reason there is, you know, some spiritual divergence, then the marriage is no longer serving your needs and meeting your needs and you should leave.
(29:58) And I’m not saying that’s good, bad or in between. I’m just saying that is an individualistic atomistic perspective on marriage relative to committing to marriage as a covenant committing to the egregor between the two of you and maybe even you would say both of you committing in service and devotion to God as your experience of marriage.
(30:25) Right? The locust of power is completely different in those in those depictions. And I imagine that then it’s not you playing the role of a wife for your husband. Of course, yes it is. But it’s really in service to the complimentary dynamic that you signed up for when you committed to the covenant. Yes. Is you both commit to complimentary energies.
(30:56) And the the simplest way for me to answer this is I think as soon as I make a come to a conclusion about my husband, I’m really just not in good territory. You know what I mean? Like what you just described like it it would require the wife to come to the conclusion like he was this and now he’s not and he he he and it’s like I know that sometimes I need to ask my husband, not that often, but sometimes I might need need information.
(31:19) But for the most part becoming it’s sort of back to that surveillance. It’s like it’s just not really my job. And am I feeding this entity that is the relationship or am I draining it? And if I’m surveilling him, I’m probably draining it. So I teach women what Pat taught me, which is God first, then the relationship, and then the two fallable human beings who are in it.
(31:46) So, if I’m in that state of even wanting to survey someone or evaluate them, I probably need to go to God. I’m probably dealing with, you know, a number of challenges or maybe just one thing that needs a shift. But I think that’s the biggest thing is that women have become such an authority over others and that’s so encouraged in the culture. And we are in authority over many, many things.
(32:12) And we’ve got to restore those things, but we are not in authority over anyone else. And it’s it’s just a bad vibe if it’s if that’s taking place in a marriage. I mean, even the idea of like, you know, reloading the dishwasher or telling him how to drive or all of those are tiny little behaviors that I mean, the extraordinary is revealed in the ordinary.
(32:40) So, when you participate in ordinary behaviors that can do extraordinary damage, it’s like you have to see that for what it is, like this is not going to feed the relationship. This is going to drain it. My husband does not, he would not describe a spiritual life like I just did.
(32:57) He just, you know, he watches me go to church. He’s like, “Okay, she was never going to church when we first got married. She is now.” He just accepts me. And I accept that he has spiritual experiences on two wheels, balancing or balancing on the ocean. You know, he does things differently and I can’t monitor.
(33:16) I mean, I find myself sometimes drifting and looking at other couples in church and thinking, “Wow, it would have been so nice to just like have him want to join me today.” But you want to know what I’m really saying? It would have been so nice to just have had an ordinary life to have answered my deep desires at 21 instead of getting like captured on this whole trajectory.
(33:34) I mean, who has the time to really go back and try to like make everything different? We can’t. We just have to accept where we are today. And so when I get the perspective on that, which often happens in church, then I can just come home and just be loved when I get home because I’m fulfilled and I’m nurtured.
(33:53) And by the way, going to church is such a wonderful thing to do because it’s it’s about receptivity. It’s about being there. I love observing mothers who have this like no access energy around them, you know, like their kids are like crawling on them, they’re like, you know, the dad takes the baby outside. It’s like whether it’s church or some other space.
(34:16) Women need spaces where their husband and children don’t have any access to them and it’s known and it’s not forced. It’s just a part of life. It’s just a part of the family’s rhythm. We have to restore that. And I remember when Dr. Pat when I first got married, she was like I told her, “I don’t think I’m going to be where any of us will be going to church, Pat.” And she said, “That’s dangerous.” And I was like, “Okay, that’s extreme.
(34:42) ” And now I’m like, I hear so many things that she said to me in an echo. They come back to me and I’m like, man, she was right. Pat was right about so much stuff. She She talked about the dark side of feminism. She talked about all this stuff in the 80s before it was in full bloom like it is now. Yeah.
(35:06) I was telling you that I did a solo cast on getting to I do uh one of her you know seinal works I would say and I felt compelled to do that because if I had read this book before I was 25 it would have changed the trajectory of my life because there are it’s very pragmatic as you know is is your treatment of this discussion it’s very pragmatic specific it talks about the language the power of the language that we use it talks about our sober assessment, right? Like one of the things that she says, right, is that if you want more love, attention, sex, or time from a man, he’s probably not your man. Well, that rules out, I don’t know, just about 95%
(35:44) of the relationships that I see, you know, myself and my girlfriends getting into where we imagine that we need to like snake charm out of this man through our uh strategy and manipulative tactics, what it is that we know is in there somewhere, but we just got to just got to help him become the man.
(36:04) No, it’s all that externalized focus that you’re describing is at odds with your experience of your your womanhood today. So, I want to get more into your interpretation of her work, but I’m not going to proceed before you share the story about praying for your husband because I loved it so much.
(36:24) And first of all, I don’t think a lot of girls know what it means to pray for a husband. So, I’d love for you to be more specific about like what that actually was like. And I’d love for you to share these, you know, you mentioned some of them, but the synchronicities, for lack of a better word, that then confirmed that he was the man, right, about um how you were praying for him and felt his like heart beating, right, through your heartbeat and found out that he was like running like all things you told loved.
(36:55) I didn’t know it was him, but I mean I got dumped and it was that needy controlling part of me was like I’m sure that this is the guy and I just have to like do something, you know, some manifestation trick and he’ll come back to me. Like still in that mindset and someone and I was going to a recovery oriented support circle and someone there said just start praying for your husband. Just pray for the person who God’s going to put in your life.
(37:21) And so of course I was picturing the guy that had dumped me like please God bring him back. Help him to see it’s really me. Thank God he didn’t come back. And so after a while the prayer itself was unwinding me from that. And I was also on that steep incline doing all the things that Pat was suggesting. And so eventually I ca and this was over a year that I prayed and it turned into a little bit of a habit or a ritual where I lived on a hill. I and if the moon was full or bright, I would it would kind of remind me to say the
(37:53) prayer. And I was as I was opening my front door, I would be like, “Please God, may he be happy. May he be whole. Please clear the path between us.” Something sort of general like that. But the recovery for me and a win was that I was no longer picturing this other guy. It was like I was just trusting God. And so I did that for a long long time.
(38:14) And eventually I started I kept getting this impression of a guy running like a guy like on a run, his heart rate high and I was like, “Oh my gosh, I think he’s a runner.” I felt like God was giving me some clues about who he was.
(38:32) So when I met my husband, we were maybe on the third or fourth date and I was like, “Do you like are are you a runner?” And of course, you know, keeping this little memory of the pray of what happened when I was praying and he was like, “Nah, I hate running.” and we just kept chatting. I was like, “Okay, he’s too cute to rule out. Who knows what that was.
(38:51) ” Then many weeks later, like maybe 10 weeks later or something like that, we were on a road trip picking up a car that’s still our car and we were talking about that year um because the year that I had got I always say it got dumped, but it really felt like that. But that was just such an undoing and caused me to meet Pat and it was a terrible year.
(39:09) It was very painful and he was also having a painful year because he had gotten divorced. And so we were exchanging more intimate details about ourselves. And he said to me, he said, “Those first few that at the beginning, not being with my kids in the house, like getting home from work and having my kids not be there was so devastating that I would make plans to have dinner with someone or I would just walk in the house, put workout clothes on, and just go run.
(39:42) I would just look at the moon and run.” And I was like like it was just all this energy was just in my knees and my knees were like water and I was like whoa. And I believe that this is a privilege of being connected to God to to being sort of to like you’re granted hints to an extent and we are intuitive beings.
(40:10) Women are intuitive beings and we enhance that when we pray and when we stay in touch with our instincts moment to moment and so I felt I was granted that hint and I didn’t say anything to him of course the old me would have been like so I had this dream you know I was it was always too much too soon before but I had learned to just calm down and like as Pat would say like have your own body have your own space have a private life and so I was just sort of witness to it but I remember sensing like this is it I’m done like games won’t work this is like this is you prayed for this Amy and the
(40:50) very real predicament for many women which is sometimes getting what you wanted what you longed for is just as hard and if not maybe harder than not getting what you want. A lot of women are in a habit of not getting what they want and and accepting it because they’re worrying around in a life that at least they they have certainty. At least they feel a sense of control.
(41:15) You know, like brunch with the girlfriends, gathering around the begging bowl, whining, there are no great guys. At least there’s one payoff, which is it’s a sense of certainty and camaraderie. And so when you give all that up and you’re just allowing and trusting God, God’s unexpected will for your life, which is full of surprises, and sometimes they’re great and sometimes they’re not, and you’re challenged to keep your composure cuz you’ve developed stamina and emotional maturity. It’s like when you’re open to that and you’re
(41:47) not you’re not going to be in control of it, of all of it all the time anymore. It’s a very different feeling. It’s a falling feeling. And that’s falling in love, you know? That’s like it’s falling away from all the games which which are everywhere. You just you you have to work. Women have to work so hard on turning away and pivoting from games and manipulations and and tricks and all that stuff.
(42:18) Letting the text get cold because you don’t want him to think this or that. If you think that you are going to be able to convey something by whether you text back a half an hour later or some other time like all that has to go out to out the window. You have to just be honest and respond moment to moment. If you have the time, respectfully respond. If you don’t, do it when you when you can. Like like what I always say, face value.
(42:43) Like face value just one foot in front of the other and pivoting away from the games and then allowing yourself to to be vulnerable, to be real. So sea moss has become quite a thing lately, and I love myself a therapeutic food over a supplement any day. But there’s sea moss and then there’s my fave samati sea mosss.
(43:08) So most people don’t realize that mineral deficiency is one of the biggest drivers of imbalance whether you’re experiencing that as fatigue or weight gain or cravings. So unless you’re growing your own food, it doesn’t contain almost by definition the spectrum of minerals that our ancestors enjoyed. So that’s why I am excited about Samadhi Sea Moss. It’s not your typical store-bought rope farmed seaoss.
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(43:56) So, I take 1 to 2 tablespoons a day in warm water that I also put a little bit of sea salt in and lime or lemon. Key lime is actually my favorite. And I noticed a shift in my digestion after just a week. The best part is that it tastes like nothing, which makes it super easy to add to your routine.
(44:14) So, if you want to experience the benefits yourself, Samati is offering 10% off with the code kelly10. Check out the link in show notes and enjoy. So in this kind of softening and slowing reclamation that I hear you talking about, there is a relaxation of the strategy and I know that you also believe in frameworks for behavior, right? And I I personally find them super helpful.
(44:48) makes a lot of sense like how a woman communicates best and how a man communicates best and we’re not going to worry about that cuz we’re just focused on our languaging and it’s nothing to memorize. It’s almost like a a frame shift. It’s not like this the tricks of a high value woman in the dating scene or whatever.
(45:06) And so I wonder if you could talk a little bit about how your communication has changed and what you recommend to women who are either dating or married in relationship when it comes to expressing themselves because I think that’s a lot of the the programming, you know. Well, this is good to say, I think, cuz this is actually we’re manto man here.
(45:31) This is work, right? So, and that’s what I teach is that it because a a feminine follower may go to work and become a masculine leader for eight hours straight. And that’s great. And that’s what I I call it like taking off your blue hat when you get home and putting on your pink hat. And uh and that’s sometimes a challenge for women who are are married. Um but it it is possible.
(45:51) And so specifically in dating to just reach the singles for now. It’s about getting in touch with how you feel and then sharing I sense I feel and asking him what he thinks and wants. Like the simplest thing to remember is ask him what he thinks and wants. Like if he tells you, if he asks you, “What do you think about going to this place on Saturday?” Um, I feel great about that.
(46:11) Uh, what time do you think? Restore it as soon as you can. And so it’s the idea is that you’re reminding yourself and him that you’re in I sense and I feel and I will ask you what you think and want. I mean, this is so incredible that it’s been proven to me over and over. I’m a stepmom to two boys and they’re men now.
(46:34) And it’s like these things were proven to me. Pat would give me tips when they were little. They’re proven to me with my husband. Pat would say, “Never ask a ma masculine leader how he feels unless he’s sick.” Even if my husband’s sick, he growls at me.
(46:51) Like if I There are times I slip and I go like, “Are you okay?” And he’s like, “Don’t ask me if I’m okay.” Like it’s a thing. If when you when you really stick to it, you realize, “Oh, I’m, you know, I’m in the room that somebody asked me not to go in.” And so it it reduces like the bewildered like why is he so mad at me? It it causes you to be like oh I I just like I violated this sort of contract that we have to communicate in this way and I can take responsibility for that and you know acknowledge it take and move on. And so it it just like it’s a conflict reducer. And when you reduce
(47:28) conflict, even if it’s a brand new date, you open to better energy and ease in getting more I don’t want to say intimate because it’s like if it’s a first date, it’s not really intimacy, but uh getting more to to the revealing, you know? It’s like if I’m if I’m in my lane, it’s going to be easier for me to to flow and easier for the guy and the gal to reveal each other, reveal themselves to each other.
(48:03) So, you talk in your book about these four energies uh that are in a relationship. And I’d love for you to sort of sketch that out because I think we imagine that we are both the ones who know best as women and also the ones who feel the most. And you you bring some nuance to bear that I think is really essential for us to embrace the reality of what happens in these dynamics.
(48:28) Well, we all have both energies within. And so I’m suggesting that you choose your prominent energy in romantic relationship. So if you’re a feminine follower in romantic relationship, you still have masculine energy and you get to be a steward of that. And he is he has feminine energy which is secondary to his masculine energy if you’re if we’re talking about a masculine leader and a feminine follower. So it it doesn’t mean that you’re just it’s not a onenote thing.
(49:00) Uh because we’re all both. Another way to describe it is that feminine followers are typically yin outside, yang inside. That’s that strength inside. We and a masculine leader, strong outside, sensitive inside. Masculine leaders are so freaking sensitive. They are. They feel even more than we do. They do.
(49:21) And and they don’t they manage it much differently. That’s going to be my politically correct way of saying it. They manage it much differently than we do. We manage so much on the inside. We are like we process and and hold space and do so much on the inside that men don’t really they don’t really get cuz they don’t do it that way.
(49:47) And so it’s not that that they’re strong and we’re weak or something like that. It’s that we are strong in a different way. And when you can understand that um that a lot of times women are the ones remaining around the deathbed and men are like uh I’ll I’ll go to get the sandwiches or you know they it’s like whoa that’s that inside capacity for them but that they will pin down the perimeter for you.
(50:18) And so it’s it’s being with all four as opposed to this one note thing that it’s been reduced to for many women and perhaps by design. You talk about equity versus equality and the you know thrust of of feminism obviously has been a demand for equality and I wonder if you could speak a little bit to the the nuance that you’re introducing when it comes to this shared and complimentary power in the energetics of these dynamics and the role of equity.
(50:52) Well, the role of equity as I see it is that it is achievable in the home. It is achievable in a marriage. It’s achievable in a family. And if you look at pre-industrial revolution dynamics, that was what was going on. And then the introduction of of like speed and ease for 50s housewives who got bored, turned to pills, surrendered to culture capture and all that, right? Everything changed.
(51:16) And to me, one of the most dangerous things that we’re witnessing now is the seeking of equity in the public because there are people who are traumatized, who have wounds of the psyche to heal, and they’re seeking something from the public sector to to deal with them, to avoid them, and and answer it in a different way. And it’s just mayhem out there as a result.
(51:43) Equity is achievable in I just want people to think of equity as like the mushy side of life, the relationships, the love. It’s uneven. It’s it’s exciting because it’s uneven. It you can never be like you can never have the perfect score. Equality that’s different and that it belongs in the public sector. It’s achievable in some cases.
(52:05) It’s another thing that we can’t just map across all all situations. But that’s how I see it. Like seeking equity in a marriage keeps it hot. It keeps it super hot. Seeking equity in in a dating relationship, it keeps it alive. And I mean, even the the vulnerability of letting him pay, letting him lead, going on a date and letting somebody pay.
(52:33) Even if you have more money, if you’re, you know, in your masculine energy all day and you’re a millionaire and you have an amazing career, go on a date and let them pay and just be that’s that’s in in that like equity that like the seessaw feeling. And there will probably be an instinct to like I have to even this out. I have to make sure he knows like I’m not using him or I’m not a gold digger or something like that.
(52:55) Just just let it flow. Let him care for you. Let him lead. Let him provide. And then perhaps a chance you’ll have a chance to make a meal at for him at home if you you know get are going on more and more dates. It’s like the idea of like bring back the uneven thing that we don’t have to define. The balance without sameness maybe. Yes.
(53:19) the balance without a scoreboard. The ledger. Yeah, the ledger. So when you look at the feminist agenda, obviously to reduce it to one singular effort is just for the purpose of rhetoric here. But when you look at that, do you see that capture as problematic as stemming from our wounds as some sort of, you know, agenda thigh up that’s been imposed upon us? Or do you see it as as perhaps I do um as sort of like a maturational stage that that is getting us to this place where you and I find ourselves in this conversation as women who stood for very different things uh
(54:00) in the past than we perhaps prioritize and stand for now. That somehow we we needed to play out that zero some game victim consciousness blaming and shaming the man. like somehow that was a stage that some are still in and so be it and that there’s like a vista beyond that has a lot of interesting things going on.
(54:30) Um, hence this conversation like where do you position all of the feminist programming and how do you regard it at this stage? Like I don’t I don’t really think you’re probably putting yourself in a lot of positions to try and convince feminists who want to be their own man about the you know the beauty and ecstasy of marriage. Well, I am if they secretly want to be married.
(54:49) I mean I think that cultural Marxism is all over feminism and I’m very suspicious of that. And I think that it accelerated growth in a malignant way. And I think that the maturity that we’re now experiencing that you referenced happened because there was this interruption to it like I think what the past five years have shown us is that things were planned.
(55:15) This this plan did not go accordingly and it was actually interrupted by in 2020 as I see it. I know 2020 was a crisis for a lot of people. was for us too. But in many ways I see it as like a speed bump to what was planned. And I know that sounds like tinfoil hat, etc. But when you go into femin I mean I just got this book.
(55:43) Okay, I’m not even gonna say the title because it’ll trigger like your you’ll get you’ll get mean comments or whatever, but I just got a book and it’s about womanhood and wonderful things and fulfillment and also it includes the culture and women in the workplace and I ordered it used from from Amazon and it it’s a library book like it’s been taken out of the library and it’s like why is this book out in the library and I’m just so suspicious of everything that has happened and how many culturally Marxist incentives are baked into feminism.
(56:20) When you really start to look into it, it’s like I I don’t think this is good. So, I just see myself on an experimental path in in all areas of my life in marriage, in religion, in terms of commenting on the culture. It’s all an experiment. I’m just going on my in I’m going on research on things I’ve learned through experience, but I’m also going on instinct. It’s like, okay, that feels prosperous for women. That does not.
(56:43) That’s like about all I can do at this point. I mean, I am suspicious of feminism. I think it’s turned into a dark movement. When if if I see a 15-year-old swimmer who’s been training since she was 3 years old lose to a biological man who’s pumping testosterone, I mean, I was in a band with a bunch of skinny guys and, you know, I was probably bigger than a couple of them. They were all stronger than me. They were all the ones carrying the gear.
(57:09) Like they had a different hormonal structure. And I just I don’t think it’s wrong to incorporate biological imperatives. I don’t think it’s wrong to teach a single woman that when she conceives that her egg will radiate out. It will it will upgrade the sperm prior to conception.
(57:36) And that same thing, an echo of that could happen in a Starbucks as she’s radiating out and signaling and smiling and choosing not to cross the room and prove to him how smart she is, but to just receive like what’s he got. It’s It’s actually It’s scary. It was scary when I did it to signal and receive, but it’s so empowering and it’s so grounding and it reduces I believe it will it will reduce for more and more women the anxiety and the isolation that a lot of ladies live with. It just breaks my heart. Yeah.
(58:14) And the burden of of leadership, you know, and the cost of initiating, right? Because I know when you talk about signaling, I know you’re talking about even just like a held gaze, right? So you’re not the one who’s initiating the interaction, deciding this is what needs to happen and making it happen. So there’s um in the receptivity a a different kind of power.
(58:41) You may be initiating it with your eyes, just not talking, just not your mouth. Yeah. And that light in 5 seconds. 5 seconds. It’s so long. It feels like an eternity. Have you ever done it? I’m No, I know. It will just make you blush. And Pat used to say it will make you feel like a [ __ ] but you’re not.
(59:00) Like that’s why virtuous women don’t do that cuz they’re like, “Isn’t that slutty?” Well, it’s actually not. It’s an indicator on this super deep level that you are virtuous and that you have a heart that has room for him that that his heart will be safe with you that you don’t have to dominate and lead him but it feels because of the nature of it like you’re being forward and so let can we just show your audience how long it will feel all right so if we’re in a Starbucks and go ahead go for it your icon contact. I’ll count. It’s so long. Oh my god, I’ll die.
(59:36) You’ll die. I’ve done it. I wanted to die. Body would have recoiled. Yes. My cheeks would get hot. But I did this. I did this. And the more you do it, the easier it gets. And it’s ma it’s it’s amazing. It is magical. It’s like pe like they’re they like what? Cuz the last and Pat talks about it in getting to I do.
(1:00:00) The last two seconds I think she says are like when it’s really like where he goes, “Oh, she’s not just catching my eye like, “Oh, whoa, what was that?” You know, and if he’s a married virtuous man, he’ll be like, “Aw, sweet.” You know, you can just signal to anyone and and if he’s open and he’s healthy and he’s a masculine leader, it will make sense to him on a visceral level and he’ll cross the room and go like, “Hey.
(1:00:25) ” You can be like, “Hi.” It it can be more light-hearted. And by the way, you have to smile while you look because it’ll otherwise it’ll look like weird or you’ll be like, “What is there something?” You know? So, it’s like you had to force yourself to smile.
(1:00:45) I was once riding the elevator down with Pat and a young doctor entered the elevator in the building and she had been telling me, “You have to signal. You have to signal.” And so we were talking and then she very professionally acted like she didn’t know me and she quickly signaled to me like he doesn’t have a ring. She went like that. I wanted to just kill her. I was like do not make me do this.
(1:01:07) I’ve just been processing all this stuff. And she looked at me like well you’re the one who told me you’re tired of losing time and fertility. So it’s like oh this is me and me here. I have to answer what I really desire and then somehow you’ll go for it. It’s so hard.
(1:01:26) But I want all the if you signal you’ll date and if you date you’ll marry and virtuous dating. Don’t get yourself wrapped up in premature intimacy or substances or any of that stuff. Just go have a cup of tea. Yes. I’ve I’ve been big on that reclamation of courtship, you know, which again I’ve come to surprisingly uh believe that women as guardians of their sexual access is their flex, you know, and of course this was known and and is known by many uh religious cultures, but it’s uh in the secular times of hookup uh empowerment, hookup based empowerment, it’s been lost, you know, that there should be some Yeah. value
(1:02:02) tied to that. So, I wonder if we can round out any because you have an entire half of your book of these kinds of very practical tips and reframes around men, woman relating and specifically in the dating to marry and I would say even marital realm.
(1:02:29) So, I wonder if if you want to share some that like the one you just shared that you feel are just super powerful for women to consider and uh leave this conversation with. Well, I think for both singles and married people, you earlier you mentioned the word strategy like having a strategy like with someone else and and the dating and like that that type of mindset and the culture and I would say it’s really reclaiming to use the your title of your podcast.
(1:02:56) It’s reclaiming strategy with the self like what what is my personal program? what because it’s most I say this all the time it’s mostly going on in here. So I would I would say that like care for surroundings, care for the body, getting to for singles getting to a point where you feel really confident.
(1:03:20) I mean every single woman watching this who who wants to be married or wants to date should look around at her surroundings right now. And if you wouldn’t be okay with with a great man just popping in and looking around, that’s your work. It might take 6 months for you, right? Practical strategy within the self. And with with mar for married women, practical strategy is just knowing that the last thing you ever want to do is approach your husband with like the big talk or the big draining thing. Like there’s usually a list of things to do with yourself that
(1:03:50) needs to be exhausted before you go to him. Sometimes it’s going to him. Sometimes it’s like, you know what, I got to I got to check this out with you. I got to talk to you. But most of the time it’s like go to God, pray, go to your best friend, go to a support situation, work out.
(1:04:09) I mean, I can take a walk and like come back in the house and I’m like, “Wait, what was that thing that was that I was going to say to him?” You know, like running a story or a narrative about how you have to take care of stuff with other people. It’s it it happens. Women, all women do it. But when you can resist that and and have a productive strategy within and then make him the least of your problems.
(1:04:33) Like women who are on apps and they’re they’re talking about this guy and he did this and he did that and I’m like wait how long have you known him? And she’s like no we just did DMs like yesterday and today. I’m like and he has this much air time in your life. Like it’s going to be a long life girl right? So focusing on the self and having strategy with the self is the answer for both singles and wives. Amazing.
(1:04:54) And one last question I have is about because there’s just so much we can unpack and you do explore so many like nooks and crannies of this topic in your book. But one last question I have is around the role of career because when I hear you talking about how you started to pair back your work in anticipation of this marriage, I hear you know Pat Allen talking about being a woman with a career versus a career woman. And of course then I invoke my own experience as a career woman definitively.
(1:05:29) And I have perhaps in my absolutist fashion come to the conclusion that being a career woman is entirely at odds with being a happy wife. And I wonder how you have navigated this or or really what your thoughts are if you have maybe more nuanced perspective on the matter and and how you think careerism um fits into the you know godwife husband paradigm.
(1:06:00) Well, I think that the whole have it all thing is something that a lot of women are suffering today. But I do think that you can have it all but not all at once. And I I heard that from an author recently, Katie Faustst. I was like, “Yeah, that’s kind of it.” And like when I interviewed Gabby Reese on my very first podcast, she said, “I don’t expect to compete with men in the workplace who didn’t leave for 8 years.” You know, she left and had a couple of babies.
(1:06:25) So there’s you can have it all, but you have to be rational about it and you have to plan and think ahead. And that is somewhat difficult when you’re talking about bringing babies into the world cuz you know, babies come when they want to come. So, I think there can be some strategy around it, but it just depends on what you really want the most.
(1:06:45) Like, today where I am, my marriage and my home and being a homemaker and my kids and this their their se the season they’re in, they’re both collegiate athletes, like that is all a priority to me. I make it work. I I do see women. I do, you know, all the things that I do, but like my office is right here off the kitchen.
(1:07:04) And I just I sort of balance it all, but I know what my priority is. And that could change. It could it could end up that I work more and things shift between us and we would just negotiate through that. But that’s it’s like I think every woman has to just sit and decide what season am I in and what is my priority? I mean, when I was first married, I like I was saying, I still really wanted to take a big huge bite out of the music business. I was chasing music licenses.
(1:07:36) I was I mean, I was making it work, but I also ran myself ragged. So, I don’t want to do that anymore. I’m a little older. You know, my husband has provided a really nice life for me. I’m kind of like, this is nice. I want to chill. So I and I’m allowing myself to do that because I kind of think of myself as an antenna more than anything. It’s like I have to be an example of what I’m teaching.
(1:08:02) I’m not I’m not going to sacrifice everything that I have to teach someone else to to find that for themselves. I have to just be a shining example of it. So but that may change. I mean, and that’s the other thing is that that culture capture means forcing women to come to conclusions in like congealed certainty that hurts them.
(1:08:21) It’s like, why do we have to do this? Why can’t we just say, well, I’m in a season or for now or you know, I was like running around trying to get licenses while also going for to fertility clinics in early marriage.
(1:08:40) And it never even occurred to me that maybe in 10 years when the kids are not in the house I’ll have a little bit more room to work on career. It just didn’t even occur to me because I was just in that fixed congealed certainty mode. And so I think anytime that’s happening that’s just not flowing. It’s not feminine. It it’s and it’s just not healthy. It’s something that’s been that has strangled us as women. Yeah. I love that.
(1:09:08) I love the idea of line of aligning with your authentic priorities for a season, you know, because I think the the gaslight that we run on ourselves is that, you know, is the denial of our actual priorities, right? Like if I had been in the self-exploratory and self-intimate mode of understanding what my heart’s yearning actually was back when I was launching my careerism, you know, obsession, I would have been able to recognize, well, I’m in defiance of my actual priorities if I am going to exist as a career woman. And that’s a choice.
(1:09:42) Of course, I can do that. Um, however, that is where that sense of of hollowess and the kind of barereft experience that so many of us come to in midlife, I’ll say as women, but I’m sure men have their version, you know, it stems from this betrayal of the authentic priorities that were always in place that we lied to ourselves about, we ignored, we pretended didn’t exist.
(1:10:09) And then there’s a, you know, a reconciling of it. Maybe it’s by design, a reconciling of it later in life. So, I love when you talk about these seasons, you know, and and really contextualizing the evolution of our femininity over a lifetime and also recognizing, you know, that you cannot have it all at the same time. Amazing.
(1:10:30) Amy, thank you so much for speaking on this apparently quite controversial topic and yeah, for holding your values strong and inspiring other women to walk the path in ways that you and I perhaps didn’t have, you know, other women speaking to back in the day. And it’s um certainly my my why as well.
(1:10:57) It’s uh almost like whispering to my past self, you know, what I wish I had been maybe made aware of, you know, even just to expand the permission field. And uh we’ll be sure to link to you and your book and your availability for for coaching in the show notes. And I want to yeah, just thank you from the bottom of my heart. Thank you so much, Kelly. This has been a real pleasure.
(1:11:14) And thank you for speaking about this and and helping women. And I believe that’s what we’re doing right now. And I’m very grateful to do that. [Music] [Music]
