(00:00) I remember watching a play all women play about early experiences and sexual abuse and the author used this beautiful expression the poisonous pleasure that’s such such a compressed expression of conflict if only it had been an all bad experience we could put it in this bucket and be done with it but life’s complicated hi and welcome back to Reclamation radio I am Dr Kelly Brogan and today back by popular demand is om Rani who is one of the more provocative and outspoken and audacious teachers on manomen relating and specifically BDSM
(00:39) that I’ve encountered and of course that’s why I love to chitty chat with him this is probably his third appearance on the show and I asked him back today to talk specifically about what is referred to in the conscious Kink and BDSM Community as scene design and my thinking is not that you’re going to like take these instructions back to the bedroom necessarily but that you may develop a more nuanced and indepth appreciation of the intersection between trauma pleasure and the potential for healing that lies in the real life adult
(01:18) consenting diet so we talk about how you can go straight to the scene of the crime with regard to your trauma based experiences whether that’s related to jealousy or infidelity or body shame or even experiences of incest and sexual abuse and you can bring a yes to the experience that your body is holding of a no and why this is transformational and how you can literally set up these Dynamics with your partner should you choose to explore the erotic Reclamation of energy from the spaces of trauma that your body is holding with all of its
(02:07) wisdom so I hope that this is expensive and potentially even pushes the envelope a little bit of your comfort in these highly taboo areas hi everyone I am back with one of my favorite exploratory partners and we are here to have a conversation that I initiated because as somebody new to uh DS BDSM culture and just very curious very um lit up about what is possible in these Realms of course with my background in Psychiatry and my you know over a decade of working with women in the specific art form of transmuting victim stories victim
(02:56) Consciousness I was curious and asked um you know behind behind the scenes he said you know where can I learn about more Scene design and examples I’m somebody who learns very much from example and sort of imaginal imprints like I like to know what’s possible and that expands you know my permission field so I said you know how can I learn about what are some examples of the way that people create scenes design scenes for specific traumas and you know I’m not talking clinically obviously I’m just talking creatively and in the world that
(03:34) I’ve entered you know through through your work home the Dom would be you know chiefly responsible for attuning to a specific Subs you know so many dimensions of her being her system her story Etc and this is more like caricatures right like this is more you know almost Cartoon Level you know and you’re down for it so I’m excited and there’s about 10 different scenarios that I would like to lay out I want to ask what do you mean by its caricature or Cartoon Level meaning like you know there’s so much Nuance that could be
(04:09) brought to bear with any given person’s story right any given person’s history of experience and so you know when I when I when we start out and I say which I will what about a woman whose primary story is my dad didn’t care about me he neglected me he had more important priorities than me okay that woman has an entire Legacy U that underpins that story right probably her whole motherline has been carrying that story her story may be that but her body may be reflecting something different that he might tune into you might tune into so I know
(04:50) there’s so much nuance and that’s why this is meant to be like a 101 right like a 101 sort of like broad strokes and generalis ations that I know would not necessarily apply in the more specific application for a given set of Partners I hear what you’re saying and I’m not sure that distinction is real for me but let’s start our conversation and and see where it goes cool that’s even better because yeah I thought you might you might say listen like it depends it depends on the person actually I don’t think it depends at all
(05:24) but ask me a question and we’ll get into it I think it’s actually the answer might be simpler than your imagin I love it that’s like exactly what I want to hear of course so I sort of put two buckets into my notes uh daddy daughter stuff because even in my training you know which was actually Freudian and my later interest in in Yan psychology the dynamic between a daughter and her father as you know you well know is very specific right relative to the dynamic between a mother and her son and you and I have even
(06:01) discussed how the erotic Dynamic that begins in a little girl’s life right look at me daddy look at my energy look at my Radiance persists and informs pretty much exactly what she wants in her adult partnership from a man and of course there is an initiation required for most young boys who seek the approval perhaps and love of their mothers but the initiation seems to uh in many ways extinguish the erotic energy if it ever existed I don’t know you tell me uh for a little boy when he becomes a man he does not want what he
(06:39) wanted from his mommy from his woman so that’s why I wanted to focus a lot on daddy daughter issues I have several of them and then on Partner issues like partner specific stuff that might come up in you know man woman relationship so let’s start with the first one the first one W is as I mentioned and this actually draws from a consult that I I just did with a woman uh who has the primary story that her father didn’t care about her didn’t like her he neglected her he had other priorities in his life his work he was very stressed
(07:14) out and his heart was closed to her she felt like a burden uh to him and that is something that she walks around the earth you know really caring you know in her in her own heart and probably attracting in partner so that would be the first one to be curious you know like how would that look let me ask you are all the you said you have 10 scenarios are all of these uh parent child scenarios seven of them are Daddy I always say daddy daughter but father daughter um and then three of them are the most common issues for I would say
(07:49) like Alchemy in Partnership because you know these things come up in and they could become conflicts that you talk about in couple’s therapy you know or you could just you know alchemize them in an afternoon you know with this kind of work I’m thinking so this is a very wonderful topic this is a very rich topic parent child scenes daddy little girl it’s a very rich area of Investigation in BDSM scene play I think I have seen truly startling amazing results and uh katarsis happen within the space of a single scene for people
(08:27) and this is slightly Advanced play at psychological play it certainly is role playing but actually the logic of it is very very much the same so I actually may have the same generic answer for all seven of your scenarios so let me first give you that outline and then we can see if what the specific nuances might be between the different scenarios So within the Dom sub Dynamic the purpose of a parent child scene is to take the submissive into a particular local of their Consciousness or their their past it’s up to the
(09:01) submissive where they want to go so you just gave one repeat it for us one more time what is what is the first scenario your submissive wants to deal with what feeling like she was a burden to her father who neglected her logic of every scene is exactly the same revisit the scene of the crime reenact the scene of the crime reenact the moment that created these narratives these beliefs these beliefs about ourselves one of the general themes that seems to be underneath all this trauma if you want to use that word I’m hesitant always to
(09:33) use the word because it is so widespread today is that essentially these are moments where we formulate stories regarding our worthiness of love so one woman may say my father was never around another woman may say my father ignored me Third Woman may say my father would get angry and withdraw fourth woman would say my father drank too much and ignored me as children essentially what we interpret all of that as somehow I did something and as a result I didn’t get the love and deservedly so we usually we assume the blame somehow in
(10:12) our child logic we’re like even if my father drank too much and didn’t love me was I responsible for that somehow so that’s like part of a re wound what rendered me unlovable what did I do that I did not get the love I wanted what’s at the source of it it usually ends up being an esteem issue not just that somebody else did something to me somebody else did something to me but when it’s a parent we usually think we deserved it because we have we have a very hard time making our parent wrong parent is right but if the parent is
(10:40) right I must be wrong because the interaction between me and my parent is painful so somebody has to be at fault and children often think I must be the one at fault essentially actually that’s a very narcissistic world viiew but children are narcissistic in a very oblivious and innocent way because because they think they are the source of they are the causality of what’s happening around them that if mommy is loving me it’s because I am doing something and if mommy’s ignoring me it’s because I am doing something if
(11:12) mommy’s angry it’s because I am doing something right we think we are gods and we are causing everything to happen including the bad and around it we build our wounding and our self identity like I’m not lovable the kind of person I am my mother didn’t love me certainly my wife is not going to love me so on and so so forth and the opportunity in BDSM scene is simply to recreate those moments to revisit deliberately in scene play and role play in the theater of BDSM knowing you are recreating it knowing that you’re Dom is not your
(11:46) father and simply revisiting those energies and examining them right and that’s that’s step one basically tell me what the tender spot is and let’s see if we can recreate it in scene play so what is the Dom’s job the Dom’s job is simply to take the submissive script and see if they can take them back there they are kind of the director and the co-actor of the submissives life story that’s that’s the D skill in parent child play and once you get to that local you basically have two options one is the Dom can recreate the negative parental
(12:27) energy so you could tell your D play my father take me there and then ignore me or push me away or tell me I’m being annoying or that you’re busy with work so I get to re-experience the pain or truly just flip it in scene play have your Dom give you the paternal love that you did not get as a child and within a scene you can do both right so if if your story is my father ignored me my father did not love me my father did not find me interesting my father preferred to work can be with his friends and play golf rather than be with his daughter
(13:02) your Dom can take you there your Dom can play the part your Dom can say sweetie I don’t have time for you I’m going going to play golf now it’s all theater or you can flip the story and he can pretend to put on his golf clubs and come sit by his daughter and read her story it really is not more sophisticated or complicated than that we are really revisiting a child’s logic A Child’s Very tender logic and somehow in revisiting it and going into it Head On Healing tends to happen as adults it’s like we are bringing our adult our adult
(13:36) is standing in front of our child archetype and scene play and then the adult will say well my dad probably did the best he could and even that time I remember he like pushed me aside and went to play golf he probably really needed to get away that day and it wasn’t about that he didn’t love me we get this understanding we see the humanity of it and the stories and the wounding they stop being so self-important the narcissism comes out of it like it was all about me it wasn’t all about you your father was a human
(14:06) being maybe he was having a bad day maybe your father was an alcoholic and can you forgive that maybe that day he was drunk he had drunk a little too much you have had days when you’ve drunk too much people come up with this thing like hey I’ve had bad days right can I forgive my father for being a human being that memory I’m still caring from 30 years ago when it was clear he was drunk and uncaring and it really is about revisiting the scene of the crime it’s bit of Psycho Drama it’s a bit of scene play you tell your Dom what your
(14:33) story is you tell your Dom the memory which which you’ve been ruminating over for 30 years and your Dom says all right let’s recreate it let’s go there let’s see if you can find some some element of release that’s the basic logic of SC play and you talked about how sometimes you can represent both sort of the the unlived fantasy and also the the core experience how does that transition look right if you’re going to include them both because I’ve I’ve seen seen this and it seems very Artful you know um in in in certain depictions to move from
(15:06) you know sort of rendering the imagined script of rejection let’s say and then and then somehow taking this sub into the Fantasy Realm of the unlived experience like how does that transition happen usually you can literally design it as a theater play between do and sub it’s you can orchestrate it you can say for the first 10 minutes minutes give me your withholding energy you’re ignoring energy you don’t have time for me energy and then let’s just switch and come over and be sweet and hold me and say I’m sorry I was being dismissive doesn’t
(15:42) mean I don’t love you I actually like spending time with you let’s spend some time together really and and it may seem it that it is in a way all fabricated in a way it is theater but emotions that come up and the healing that happens is extremely real and it’s very moving to watch right one of my favorite examples to give about parent child I’ve seen is it you know it doesn’t have to be always about the negative things one woman who’s in our community and classes said you know what one of her Fondest Memories of her
(16:15) father was when he would read to her her father loved books her father would give her books and then her father would also read to her it was one of the main ways she remembers having her father’s attention and connecting with her father because her father wanted to encourage her to read and then he would spend a lot of time sitting with her reading to her and then she’s like it’s like it’s what I miss the most cuz I had his attention we were together it was only the two of us it was a best time it was quality fatherdaughter
(16:44) moments and so she designed a scene where her domm played her father and he just read to her for 20 minutes and she was in tears it was like I got my father back for 20 minutes right so in my I mean I can I wish we had I I have a whole very long module on parent child scene play and I have a few sections here on what are the few categories of incompletions between parent and child if you want I can quickly go through those and that’ll give you an idea I I tell my students to kind of go through these questions and see which ones stick
(17:22) out for them which categories and then whatever sticks out for you whatever evokes emotion that that the Nugget you should bring into scene play to examine and deal with right and it’s in a way big category because of course our childhood is a big category and our relationships are that complex but it is not infinitely complex truly I find it’s a handful of categories in which incompletion happens are some uh negative beliefs gets formed around am I lovable what are the conditions for me being loved by my parent I would love that that I mean I’m
(17:57) I’m sure I probably yeah uh would have touched on them and they’re splintered around but I think your categories are perfect so the module starts off saying obviously we all have a child archetype needless to say but this needs to be point out that the child when I work with archetypes obviously the child archetypes is inside all of us all through our all through our life so in a way the child archetype in US is never completely gone and ejected it’s part of us so if you’re 70 years old there’s still the child in knew that was 4 years
(18:30) old 5 years old 10 years old and that child archetype can be Revisited it’s always sitting inside of us it’s never gone that’s the first thing to acknowledge that we all have a child archetype in us and it is safe to say that nobody’s childhood archetype the child archetype is was kept absolutely complete everybody’s child archetype has something incomplete in it right and that it’s a matter of finding well in my childhood what was incomplete right so I’ll read you the questions around examining so these are the questions to
(19:10) ask your child archetype where is your child most incomplete where was your childhood most severely interrupted what is the biggest trauma of your childhood what beliefs about yourself did your child acquire without being able to comprehend the the true complexity of it because children form beliefs very quickly and rapidly and they they are interpreted to a child’s lens and what were those beliefs what loss did your child experience how was love rewarded or withheld from your child very big topic what made your
(19:47) child feel safe what made your child feel they were a cherished part of the world what made your child feel fearful terrified abandoned lonely discarded when did your child feel he or she was preferred very big category as children and when did your child feel he or she was not preferred or wanted that in itself is enough I’m sure everybody can take off at least a few Point like o I have some tension there and that’s only one category of questions right so the design of a parent child play one of the approaches can be simply completing
(20:28) these these areas of of kind of again trauma if you want to call it or incompletions and there are other categories but let me know if that makes sense if that resonates yes absolutely yeah I I think the preferred one because I think many of us experien very volatile uh you know in Psychology it’s intermittent reinforcement right so it’s the most powerful way to program an individual is to give them something and then unpredictably take it away at intervals it is very painful it is even pain ful as adults if you have Partners who have
(21:03) boot swings who tend to withdraw it can be extremely painful and you can you can almost feel yourself regressing to an infantile stage and those energies because you’re like what do I need to do to keep your love consistent it’s a really painful thing to take on psychologist will say don’t do that to yourself yeah exactly and often times whether some some certain personality patterns whether they’re doing it consciously or unconsciously that’s how they control and manipulate right people with NPD will do intermittent
(21:37) reinforcement and when they love you it’ll be like the sun came up and then they will take it away and you’re like a junkie on a withdrawal you’re like what happened to all the love I had yesterday right and sometimes this happens with parents not because they are being evil or they’re being tortured it may be it may be as simple as the mother suffered from depression it may be that the father traveled for work or he worked long hours and it ends up being an intermittent reinforcement when the father is there the son is up and then
(22:02) you don’t see him for 3 weeks there are a couple of follow-ups I want to ask about this one is I’m just thinking of a friend of mine who tracks a lot of her sort of conflicted relationship let’s say to her own sexuality back to one incident where she uh was her dad was leaving I think and she was very very little maybe six and she winked at him and he shamed her for for that and said you know that’s not appropriate you can’t do that with your father and uh I’m sure many girls had that experience of you know sort of flirting playing
(22:41) with their dad and then being admonished for it uh how how would that sort of translate would it be a sort of exact reenactment of that kind of a scene and then some sort of transition into you know a play of the desire sort of acted out the desire that the little girl maybe even had on some level for you know the father when I was in your retreat container Lori you know shared this super impactful that I spoked her about on the podcast experience that she had you know uh playing out with a friend in a scene of really taking the
(23:17) unlived desire that she had as a little girl for her father to desire her erotically into an actman right would it be the Fulfillment would it look like that or what do you think again the I think the logic is not infinitely complex it’ll go in one of two direction either you enact it and your father reacts exactly the same way shames you so you can simply go into it and feel that or you can flip the script and go in the opposite direction wherever you think the catharsis may be for you wherever you think the healing may be
(23:51) for you play it out both ways I think when we do this as adults I don’t think we are so fragile we can literally run the script both ways and see which one has has greater impact on us and sometimes you may have to do it both ways and people are crazy enough in BS and play that they really sometimes they go all out I have seen people do parent child play this was a day this was a day you missed in Tulum so the day you missed let me tell you a couple of stories of what went on because we did parent child play first
(24:23) of all I matched people with tarot cards I did not pick I did not select them and I didn’t even select by gender I’m like if two men end up together it’s perfect two women and I don’t because this is not gender play and you don’t need to play the parent of only your gender women can play fathers men can play mothers I really find it’s very it’s amazing the magic of this container when I have my all women class my Priestess training they do father daughter play women to women and it’s brilliant every time we had
(24:59) I’ll give you one example we had this is so insane we had two women who got paired up they were both physically disciplined by their fathers they were both belted by their fathers by the way they were both Eastern European they were both belted by their fathers they both had sisters younger sisters one would step in to take the beating for the younger sister one was glad that she could take the beatings and her little sister was not touched the other one hated the little little sister that she got the beatings but the
(25:35) little sister never got any they got paired with each other I don’t know how cuz we didn’t know anything about this they both did a scene where they belted the crap out of each other they went all in Lori and I are looking at the scene like what the hell are those two women doing because we don’t know what their scenarios are they haven’t told us we’re going to tell we’re going to find out later what they’re doing and they really went into the scene all the way and they played the Psycho Drama All The Way They
(26:02) had told each other each other’s narratives all the way they got to tell the father yeah hit me but leave my sister alone and the other one’s like hate you for doing me why don’t you go she’s your favorite you never touch her they got to play out all the withholds right whatever the resentments were you get to say them now and you know this this particular thing is just just theater this is a fellow girl who’s doing it to you it’s not your father but the release happened the release is just as real because all those stuck
(26:32) energies you get to speak it and they went all the way because they wanted the physicality they wanted the pain they wanted to revisit those somatic memories it was very real for them right because once you put the body in the same sematic States you’re like right back there right I don’t even know they may even have been speaking to each other in their common language I think they they have been in the same country Eastern European country so you see this crazy theater happening and and all within the course of an hour two-way scene they
(27:02) come out and it’s like that was like 15 years of therapy right it can be really beautiful when it works so which way is the release going to happen who the hell knows was the recreating the belting was the part that created the katharas was being able to yell at your father this time and before you never could was that part of the katharas was speaking out your resentment about sibling preference the point of katar says was the after care where your D now held you and actually gave you the containment post beating which you never
(27:37) got as a child now was that the crucial healing part because it’s a very important piece usually when people get hit or punished they’re they’re left afterwards most of the time and our scene we’re like no this much we require of the Dos that don’t leave your submissive hanging contain them give them after care bring them back don’t let them self Soo because that was part of the trauma this time the DM is going to suo the submissive don’t leave the submissive to self Soo as we did when we were thrown on our own energies as young
(28:13) people because that’s part of the energy there’s nobody here afterwards was that the part that actually the undas loosens up the trauma and the memory I think all of it and it’s hard to measure it right but this is the magic of scene play that you play all this out and and people come out and say that’s incredible I feel so much released so much of the story is gone so much of the charge is gone now I can just look at like yeah that happened to me that’s part of my biography now and stories like that are truly not uncommon and in
(28:45) plays like that it’s really is amazing how impactful it is this is why I’m really a huge advocate of uh scene play I think it’s magical it’s I think theater is magical and this is we partic in the theater of it we are the actors and the participants right and our life stories our most chariest parts of our biography are the script you’re playing out right because there’s a memory there’s an experience and then there’s the narrative that persists really generating the same emotional veilance our entire life and the narrative always
(29:21) generally is about one’s selfworth all of it right some the one girl feels proud she took the beatings for her sister that’s an element of pride in her so now is her memory of the beatings positive or negative this is where sex gets kinky cuz that girl may tell her man spank me punish me and he’ll be like what the hell are you getting out of it what she may be getting out of it is a sense of accomplishment strength Pride character nobody knows that except her because she took the beatings for the sister for the other girl it’s opposite
(29:58) right whatever it is this is how we kind of formulate our our self-concepts and self- beliefs around these little things yes and it’s also the complexity right in sexual abuse and molestation and actual Frank incest is that there is pleasure for most that’s very it’s a very controversial topic this topic keeps coming up I don’t know I’ve like talked about this topic three times in the last three weeks with different people that there are positive elements to dark experiences and they really screw us up it’s that confusion that
(30:28) actually is the the seed of the trauma yeah it’s a confusion when women say the body responded and I remember watching a play all women play about early experiences and sexual abuse and the author used this beautiful expression the poisonous pleasure stayed with me that’s such such a compressed expression of conflict right if only it had been an all bad experience we could put it in this bucket and be done with it but life’s complicated and love generally with parental experiences we interpret it in some way to our lovability it’s really hard to
(31:08) separate ourselves from the experience and the event and our worthiness somehow gets entangled in it I also as somebody who’s studied a lot of somatic experiencing Peter lavine’s work um am fascinated by the potential for this completion concept on the physical level right because in that bran of you know sort of trauma healing there is this idea that there is I mean these are my words but the like the unkicked kick or the unpunched punch right and that there are actual physical movements that in experiences of abuse I would say
(31:47) chiefly you know physical abuse but anytime we experience our own powerlessness as children there are movements that the body wanted to make right we wanted to push him off we wanted to you know kick our mom when we were mad and and we couldn’t or didn’t or tried and it was ineffective and so to go back to those moments and you know like you depicted in that one scene Scream the thing that wanted to be said and all of the Motions that come with it right our bodies animate in those moments and that completion is a very
(32:19) wellestablished means of closing a a trauma Loop that could never occur in talk therapy right there’s no hope it can Ur in talk therapy and I would say it can’t even occur if you try to carry out those movements minus the emotional charge underneath it you can’t do it separate from the emotion and even separate from the scenario you really need the full theater of it a little bit you really need to put the body back in the place and then play with the drama in the theater of it and it does something afterwards I think it does create
(32:54) completion of it knives for people yeah so I designed my first live Retreat audacious embodiment as a feminine Reclamation boot camp and the ultimate pattern disrupt of all of the ways we close down shut off and choose survival unto death instead of Vitality in our lives as women so I called in an All-Star cast to take the stage and expand the permission field of what we get to be as women who we are allowed to be and to guide you through Shadow work with yours truly Osho dynamic medit family constellation ancestral song Hair
(33:32) whips and sensual hip grinding routines creating art out of your longing twerk and perhaps the climax pun intended of the event where in the able hands of a dominatrix I gave a surprise to me demo on how spanking can be used to alchemize your inner tyrant’s voice into love celebration and acceptance it was gamechanging not only for me but for everyone who was able to witness this and it is now recorded and available for you to partake in so and one of the attendees said I left feeling so much more attuned and open to my emotions and
(34:13) I feel this connection to my intuition and My Body Sensations that I didn’t even realize was there and another said this past weekend she opened the door invited me in and gave me permission to open my heart move my my body and dance heal my mother wound say no say yes use my voice honor respect and admire men honor my own courage meet my dominance and submission meet my Edge and go past it I know that these recordings will translate what occurred that weekend and I cannot wait to hear what gets audaciously ignited within you so check
(34:55) them out they’re available on my shop page and and at the link in show notes there are two scenarios this is so profound I just yeah I find this an essential part of the conversation that Psychiatry certainly not having depicting uh kink as a paraphilia in the dsm5 there’s a you definitely an intention to keep this out of the realm of Therapeutics at best and malign it and and stigmatize it at worst I am curious what you think about two scenarios that I see come up a lot in men women Dynamics in marriages in
(35:30) Partnerships that I um have observed and experienced actually become like a nidus of ongoing conflict that could be alchemized in this setting I think very creatively although I don’t necessarily know what that would look like one is jealousy right one is jealousy and specifically you know I’m speaking to women here so specifically women who find themselves threatened by this idea of her man having a Wandering eye or having certain Dynamics with women whether they’re overly sexual or otherwise you know that could become
(36:06) such a painful story you know for that couple and I know that you have experienced creating scenes where that could be visited and you know alchemized and the other is uh body shame you know I I think specifically and I worked on this you know we worked on this with women this weekend breasts is like a big one right so especially women in my demographic who’ve had a couple kids and you know haven’t opted for let’s say surgical optimization if you will you know breast shame you know like my my breasts are saggy my nipples aren’t
(36:39) pretty anymore but then there’s all sorts of sham held in all sorts of part of the parts of the body right whether it’s legs or ass or belly I think Bell is probably another big one and what are some of the ways that that can be worked with in with a trusted partner in in BDSM play truly the logic again is the same BDSM people in a way they believe in turning into the fire because avoidance doesn’t really work when something’s really bothering you avoiding it doesn’t work so let’s take the first scenario of jealousy again
(37:14) this is such a common topic I’ve orchestrated scenes around this for many a couple it’s a very common request I would say jealousy is essentially born of exclusion jealousy is essentially about abandonment jealousy is about not being preferred not being the first Chosen One somebody else is going to be chosen over me and that scenario can be again played out in both directions in scene play very effectively let’s say it’s the woman who is dealing with her jealousy she wants to deal with it I can bring in a female practitioner because
(37:51) you need three to exclude you need at least three to leave one person out the practitioner can be in engagement with her man with her husband you can literally tell her go stand in the corner and watch feel what you’re feeling burnning it what are the thoughts that are coming up for you if you want that ride and examine how true those statements are and even if those statements are true so what but this is Advanced play you have to have enough of your psyche intact and you have to want to do this right is he enjoying her he
(38:27) is she actually is younger than you she actually is prettier than you he actually may leave her leave you for her happens all the time happens all the time people cheat on their Partners all the time people the again the logic is the same is turn into the fear and instead of the monsters being inside your head put them in front of your physical eyes then what can you do great because if you understand that jealousy essentially is born of exclusion at some point I’ll bring the wife over says come here I’ll put them in a threes sub I’ll have the H
(39:02) man handle both of them I’ll have the practitioner pour her love and IRAs on the woman till she does not feel excluded now she’s having fun now she’s being loved now she’s in a cuddle puddle now she is in arousal with her man and this beautiful woman she does not feel discarded she does not feel alone she feel her pleasure and her acceptance has doubled I’m like okay enough of that go back in the corner and then come back and we play this game sometimes play both sides of it and I think if you play it enough times you
(39:35) kind of stop being terrorized by your own thoughts and then you see your agency in it right and I’ve seen true compersion being generated from this which is like you know what all of it is true and all of it is fine and all of it is possible yeah there are gazillion women younger and more beautiful than me at this point yes my man could leave me for one of them yes all of those Horrors can come true and yet I know my man loves me I don’t think he’s going anywhere I don’t think he’s trying to hurt me even when
(40:11) he looks at other women or he desires other women look at that woman I desire her she’s goddamn hot of course he would desire all the all the reality just comes up instead of the monsters in the head and like now I have Agency on like what exactly do I want to create with my husband do I want to sit in a corner and sulk and draw them away or do I invite women like this over and have fun with them once a week it’s your life to live truly I’ve seen people make that shift and like where is the greater agency where is the
(40:41) Artistry of iros and relationship and sulking and drawing people away because of your fears are actually creating the life that you want cuz what’s to stop you what’s to stop a woman and a man in their 60s and 70s hiring practitioners in their 20s to come by once a week and have fun with them nothing enjoy your life create whatever the hell you want this inclusive comportment I think is is fascinating because I hadn’t really thought about the abandonment uh perspective because there are some teachers who would say you know look at
(41:11) who it is that your man has his what what turns him on other than you right and embody that energy that if you want to retain the Fidelity of of your man’s you know uh focus and attention then you have to hold all of the feminine energies and flavors from the dark to the light and there’s almost like a striving to become something and embody something that is not organic to you which could be wonderful right it could be expansive that could be fun but what you’re suggesting is be your damn self and find ways to resolve what is
(41:49) fundamentally potentially only threatening when you are projecting your childhood wounds onto it this may sound like I’m M making light of the the subject but it truly is as simple as whatever the wife’s vegetarian and she tells the husband you know what go with your guys and go eat a steak I don’t need to come with you you can truly I don’t think I think our appetites and desires are localized often times and we can be generous to each other and fulfill them and let me tell you one of the most common ways this has come my
(42:22) way which may be counterintuitive to many people and this often comes from couples who have been married for a while men who usually are quite sophisticated and worldly they’ll be like you know what om you’re a brilliant Tom I don’t have time to become a brilliant D I’m okay with paying you money to handle my wife once a week or once a month have a great time not a problem they can lay their boundaries I have my own boundaries they’ll be like no penetration I’m like not doing that anywhere they’re like please show her a
(42:50) great time send me the bill it’s not a problem and maybe one session with a do a week is all that the wife needs to feel H delighted instead of trying to convert a very high powerered man who’s working 80 hours a week to come get Dom training right into a professional right and he’s like I don’t have time for it I don’t have a particular appetite for this but if this is what my woman wants just as I’m happy to send her for a spa weekend yeah she has a d she visits once a week or twice once every two weeks not a problem for me women
(43:25) probably make similar accommodations for their men I don’t know I don’t want to know what you’re doing in Vegas just you know don’t bring anything home and we’re good I think this is what great adult relationships look like actually can we nourish each other can we be kind to each other I’m a big fan of Esther peral and one of the central points eser peral makes over and over is we are living in these neurotic times where we have this insistence that one person fulfill all our needs and we are failing miserably
(43:53) with this premise because we’re living in a world where where desires are ever expanding we want more and more things more and more things are being shown to us to wet our appetites never before have our appetites been stimulated like in the current day we are being sold to want things and then in relationship and sexuality and IRAs we are deciding that one person now needs to fulfill the entire spectrum of our desires it’s unrealistic right and how can we be kind to each other find a way to live rich lives without making
(44:30) unrealistic expectations on our partners as distinguished from something that we’ve spoken about in previous conversations as distinguished from the seven chakra marriage right or this idea that you bring all of yourself on all of these activated points to the relationship it does not mean that you are all of the things necessarily to that person yeah and I think there are there are certain things on that list which I think are integral to partnership right the one the primary one I talk about is if the woman does
(45:01) not respect this particular man there isn’t isn’t going to be any real partnership but iros actually is not one of the things people can have spectacular Partnerships really deep Partnerships that last for decades and having the perfectly fulfilling erotic connection with each other is not the deal maker or the deal breaker for people often times so create the life you want create the life that works for both of you together in that area huge permission field in this okay so what about the the final topic uh I brought
(45:35) up which is how to work with body shame yeah body shaming is such a common uh Topic in BDSM scene I train I have a class for women training them to be dominates and one of the very common requests they get is for [ __ ] shaming men are so insecure what their [ __ ] size is men are really believing the idea that just as women feel oh I’m aging there are younger women he’s going to leave me men often feel oh you’re going to find a bigger sweeter happier [ __ ] than me it’s one of the core fears and so whether that’s true or not is
(46:08) irrelevant just as women’s body insecurities to most men are like you’re beautiful I don’t know what you’re being so neurotic about or women if it’s it’s women’s issue they’re like but I’m insecure it’s the internal narrative I’m carrying and those are those internal narratives can be brought up in humiliation play and really the logic once again is the same turn into the fire essentially so you’re worried what are you worried about [ __ ] is too small no woman’s going to love me for this I can’t satisfy a woman my woman’s going
(46:35) to leave me and then there’s a range there is a range of humiliation scenes Men set up everything from Simply being stripped down and have being verbally abused by a dominatrix all the way up to hiring a man with a humongous [ __ ] to come [ __ ] your woman in front of you and simply burn that and go through that humiliation because human beings are insane and my love those scenarios are more common than you would think I’m not kidding men hiring other men paying them to come take their wives in front of them with their huge members is a very
(47:15) not an uncommon scenario of play and scene play and again all kinds of energies are wrapped into this the man maybe wants to go into his humiliation he wants to externalize his internal fears and realize the world hasn’t fallen apart at another level you know what if my woman actually is a size queen and she wants this I’m going to give it to her it’s in a way way of taking charge of the situation instead of being victim to it and kind of dealing with all these various areas of the psyche I was interviewed by uh
(47:46) Aubrey Marcus and so this is a public story um and he shared an experience that he had of hiring he and his wife hiring a female dominatrix and you know working on like sort of like erectile performance pressure I don’t know that that’s my phrase for it and the the way that many men tie their sense of Worth to the hardness of their [ __ ] and you know I spoke on the podcast with River roaring about boner shame and how you know from early in life boys are taught this thing should never move ever or you’ll be humiliated irreparably but
(48:24) then when you get into the bedroom you should have like a rock hard [ __ ] and know exactly how long to keep it that way and so you know he he experienced with this dominatrix this validation I would say and and praise and even like erotic Mastery without you know having that level of performance at play and so I could see there’s so many different Avenues to to very much here also you can go in two directions so the the flip side of humiliation play is cherishment play right worshiping worshipping so you talked about the women so at one level
(48:59) you could bring the woman in and actually humiliate her and say look how old you’re getting blah blah blah and then you can flip the script and actually admire her and tell her how beautiful she is and do it genuinely and let her let take that in too because after the humiliation play you’re kind of ripped open and that’s actually a great time to pour in some cherishment and you can do that with women you can do that with a man you can rip a man open saying look at your pathetic little [ __ ] and then you can turn that around
(49:26) and say do you have any [ __ ] idea what an amazing man you are do you have any idea how desirable you are do you have any idea what an impression you make on women and how many women want you and let all of that get in and it’s beautiful it’s really magnificent yes what am I I’ve done that to people I’ve seen it done and I teach it to people and it’s really it is the it is extraordinary people both sides will be crying by the end both sides because that these places are so tender in us we are so afraid in these tender places
(49:57) right that we want to go into our fears and then we when we receive the acknowledgement it’s like we basically turn liquid because we’ve been carrying the fears and the tenderness in those parts for so long and we don’t get to hear that cherishment either because you know people we don’t hear that often times from our partners so the scene play has this power to kind of deliver these very concentrated medicines humiliation is a very concentrated medicine and then at the other end of it gives somebody very concentrated
(50:24) cherishment and appreciation and reflection on brilliant they are can be really amazing beautiful to watch and then you could even throw in punishment for self-abuse right like punishment or self yes you can punish them for not loving themselves more which is a great head [ __ ] one of the favorite head Fox is to actually punish people for diminishing their Brilliance instead of punishing them for you can you can punish to lessen the darkness or to increase the brightness both of them so if you know there are areas where you’re
(50:56) not showing up up that’s the obvious area of punishment but you can also punish people like Kim me did to you for do you let yourself feel how amazing you are in this world do you let yourself feel how much impact you’re having I’m going to turn you around and I’m going to have you these women tell you in real time while I spank your stupid ass that you stop holding yourself back and I saw your face those are real emotions yeah you get ripped open at those moments it’s really absolutely and that’s also the magic as you well know of impact
(51:27) play is that for for many of us who have a tendency to dissociate you know uh in in these moments of peak emotional expansion it keeps you here it keeps you here you know to have that intense sensation during administered like during these emotional alchemical experiences it can keep you there it is a form of anchoring and it can be a true form of punishment like stop doing this [ __ ] stop cutting yourself down like this right that could be the flip side of humiliating a guy for [ __ ] size first you humiliate him and then you beat the
(52:03) [ __ ] out of him like you got a cut this [ __ ] out what the [ __ ] is wrong with you do you have any idea what a magnificent man you are this is what you’re obsessed about do better things with your time it’s a great form of head [ __ ] it’s a very beautiful and generous feeli to hold for someone because ultimately you want you want their release and qars as an expansion I remember the first introduction I had to this was through kazia urbaniacs work who is Dominatrix and or was and she talks about when she worked in this dungeon
(52:31) she had this client who had May perhaps an objectively small [ __ ] right and that she you know shamed him for it humiliated him for it and then and then alchemized it by saying you must know how to really please a woman then like you must be a masterful lover if you’re working with that and you know exactly what to do and I was like wow this is high art this is high art it is Art and it’s a very loving space ultimately to hold for someone yes compassionate and these are really painful places you know all kinds of things can go into this
(53:07) [ __ ] size is one of them I’ve had you know the kind of the privilege of working a few times couple of times with men who have been through prostate surgery and their nerves have been damaged and they can’t get erections anymore not even not even with Viagra and men are often devastated and I have seen similar Transformations happen to them to kind of flip the narrative and if you can if you can serve those people in that way if you can kind of restore their Brilliance and some kind of a positive outlook in some way to kind of
(53:40) drain that belief like I’m no longer a man I’m no longer useful to women women can’t possibly be interested in me I can’t possibly be of any use to women without interaction ever but these are the beliefs are what’s what are killing people they’re not really objective and it’s it’s beautiful the the changes that can happen when we go in there and we Tinker with this when scene play oh I love this this conversation feels to me like such an important contribution to the intention of unlocking the power of taboo and of
(54:15) course you know the way out is through of course it is right you have to turn toward it if you want to visit with what is arrested in development gosh it’s so profound it doesn’t go away on its own truly sits there for decades and so these were super helpful examples of that you know you bring 40 50 60 year old people and they’re still doing child play and they’re still visiting something that happened when they were 6 7 8 9 10 years old it’s like our child our childhood archetype doesn’t automatically disappear those wounds
(54:45) don’t automatically heal they run our lives I’m so grateful to you and this incredibly essential work you’re doing in the world and we’ll make sure you know that everybody has access to the incredible materials that you’ve developed that I just don’t think Exist Elsewhere to explore this and really ground it in theory and practice and also I just think the way that you write is so inspirational your book is one of my favorite contributions to this space I mean maybe actually my favorite because there’s so much poetry in this
(55:19) realm there’s so much metaphysical significance in these conversations and I I have really come to believe that this is uh one of the most important Technologies for self-empowerment that exists out there you know and it’s being I feel very heartened that you are speaking of it this way because it’s hard to convince people that Kink is not just for kinky people that BDSM and the things we do are not just for people in leather pants and dungeons so it’s very hard to tell people this is this is a human we examining our Humanity in these
(55:52) Explorations that this is not Fringe so it’s one ful to have more people kind of Express that more people need to hear it otherwise the bulk of the people out there think oh those weirdos do those things I’m like I still don’t own a pair of leather pants trust me this is not there is something in this realm for everybody who who cannot use some kind of release in their child archetype amen right to think that this is only for some weirdos on The Fringe I think it is very hard to disabuse this false impression from our culture but we we’ll
(56:26) do our we’re doing it thank you my pleasure love thank you for having me [Music] [Music]
