(00:00) I truly used to hate being a woman when I was younger. We are the weaker sex. When we continue to think anything different than that, we continue to lie to ourselves. I used to be such a cold hard. I had this constant dichotomy in me, this push and pull of deeply wanting to be loved and cherished and taken by a man.
(00:24) But I also was like, well, that’s being a bad feminist. The only women that can be truly submissive are the most confident women. Because you need to be confident enough to say no, to speak your truth, to draw boundaries. A woman speaking her truth is still a woman in her feminine. And at the end of the day, it is all just like yin and yang, right? Like we fit together so perfectly, but the messaging in society has just made so many women feel like being a woman is weak.
(00:52) Welcome back to Reclamation Radio. I am Dr. Kelly Broen and today I sit down with Monica Yates, author of Becoming Her and a very like mind and heart when it comes to all things man relating and masculine feminine dynamics and specifically what it is to experience your feminine essence as a woman and even a female entrepreneur.
(01:25) So, we unpack many myths and legends and look at a lot of the programming that has informed our armoring as women. And specifically, we’ll talk about how it is that you can be an empowered submissive as a woman, what it looks like to move from being cold and hard to soft and receptive. and the surprising plot twist that I also have come to, which is that it doesn’t require adding anything to your to-do list as a woman who is already experiencing herself as too masculine.
(02:01) And the most compelling to me, which is the nuance that she brings to the conversation around providership and how it is that she is the bread winner in her relationship, but not the provider. Enjoy. Welcome, Monica, to the show. Thank you, Kelly. I’m so excited to be here. Oh, it’s such a pleasure.
(02:23) And one of one of the greatest delights in my experience as like a public-f facing gal is attracting like-minded and like-hearted women and feeling the fabric of remembrance, you know, that’s happening all over the world, you know, through our very unique paths and and journeys. and to find, you know, such shared perspectives and insights.
(02:50) And so, I’m so excited to connect to you and to really share your message, which is in so many ways my message, with all of the women listening. I was thinking of of you and this conversation, I think it was yesterday or the day before, because I saw this real technically, and it was this older woman, right? Maybe you’ve even seen it.
(03:12) and she’s whispering into the ear of maybe like a 60-year-old woman who’s whispering into the ear of a 40-year-old woman. And all of these women, maybe four of them, are saying the same thing, like you need to be strong. Your emotions are a source of weakness. You need to be like independent and self-sufficient like this kind of a a messaging.
(03:35) And it was, you know, sort of uh translated from somewhere else. was the sentiment was essentially like you know emulate the man and suppress the womanness in you. Okay. So then it gets to the little girl and the final mother so to speak is saying you need to be soft and enjoy your life and experience pleasure and play you know so it’s like the I love that cycle breaker and I see you obviously as one of these cycle breakers obviously bringing life into the world soon and I’d love to just start off with you know whether you see yourself that
(04:14) way in your mother line how it has handed down to you the concept of womanness and womanhood and what it is that you are remembering, you know, these days when it comes to that. Oh, beautiful question. Thank you, Kelly. It’s like that’s a really nice way of asking almost like how did you get here but like not in the boring way, right? And so I mean, yeah, I was definitely not how I embody my feminine and my connection to womanhood and just being a woman and my appreciation for everything that we get to experience as women. That
(04:47) was not something that was, you know, passed down to me. I actually grew up with the messaging that was like being a woman is the bad end of the stick that was rammed into my head. I also got a lot of just like the being a woman is so hard, you know? I think a lot of us had that experience not even just from our mothers and from our family life, but also just from school.
(05:11) Like I just remember all of the sexed classes just thinking like we have it so hard, you know, and then obviously social media adds to that and just the conversation a lot of the time in the media these days is just like basically being a woman is so hard. It’s so dangerous. It’s it’s the bad end of the stick.
(05:27) That was a really big one for me. If it’s a bad end, you get the bad end of the stick. And another one was next time I’m coming back as a man. So that was a really big one. And then the other one that was a massive one was boys only want one thing aka sex. And so there was just a lot of I mean there was so many layers for me.
(05:42) For one it was I really put my dad on a pedestal. You know he was working all the time. I am Australian but I also grew up in New York City and he worked in the Rockefeller Center and whenever we would go in and see dad on the work days. It was just like this vibe of like the few women in the office that were the secretaries.
(06:03) It was like I just idolized it. You know, one of my favorite movies growing up was View from the Top. I don’t know whether you ever watched that with Gwennneth Paltro and I would watch it over and over and over again on my little like iPod movie thing. And again, it was just this woman who was a girl boss. She was quote unquote killing it, traveling everywhere.
(06:21) Couldn’t keep up with our relationship. But that’s okay because look at her. She’s flying around the world. She’s a first class air hostess S4 first class. Like I just it was really glamorized for me being the kind of like girl boss independent woman and that obviously then trickled down in so many ways and it really took a bit of an awakening for me to realize like oh actually being a woman is amazing like I would never want to be a man now.
(06:46) Like I love being a woman and I truly used to hate being a woman when I was younger. When I listened to how you were messaged about the vulnerability that is potentially inherent in being a woman and that it was framed as a burden, right, rather than just kind of a neutral reality that we comport ourselves around as a society, as a species and I know you have a lot of thoughts on the biological reality of men versus women, men visav women and what it is to really embrace the biological reality of womanness.
(07:26) So I know that that from personal experience can be a bit of a hot take these days. And so I wonder how you think about that vulnerability these days. Even just what you said, right, of like you said there is a potential vulnerability of being a woman. I mean there’s not a potential vulnerability like we are the weaker sex, right? And I was saying this to somebody else the other day on a podcast.
(07:49) I said when we continue to think anything different than that, we continue to lie to ourselves. And I think that was one of the big things that really helped me to actually not, you know, the first step I believe to loving ourselves or loving anything is sometimes acceptance. And so, you know, one of the first things that I had to do was just accept that like I am not as strong as a man.
(08:12) And why is that a bad thing, right? the only reason. And also like strength is so subjective like what kind of strength are we talking about, you know, and whilst a man, you know, if he lifts a really heavy bag, the average man that’s not going to feel as heavy to him as it would feel to a woman, the average man is stronger than us.
(08:29) But when we look at like emotional perspectives, women are stronger in that area. And at the end of the day, it is all just like yin and yang, right? Like we fit together so perfectly. But the messaging in society has just really been and you know it’s really after like the third fourth wave of feminism has just made so many women feel like being a woman is weak like our like there has been this huge devaluing of the feminine and I think that you talk about this so much Kelly just even you know in the fact that like there isn’t necessarily
(09:02) this perfect balance between like being a working woman and a mother like you can’t have it all right and I think that when we continue to lie to ourselves as women thinking that, you know, we can just be super women. Then we wonder and we then, you know, put shame on ourselves when we’re burnt out.
(09:21) We think we’re failing. But it’s like, but you’re you’re trying to live up to this version of womanhood that actually doesn’t exist. Society has just made us think that it exists. I consider a lot the almost like energetic frequency of the gaslight as being a kind of hellcape for most of us who experienced, you know, classical childhood trauma.
(09:46) And so what I hear you talking about is the gaslight that says I am as strong, as powerful, as capable as a man. And I know I was running that gaslight on myself for most of my professional career. and most of my romantic relationships imagining that I was actually better at problem solving, better at, you know, goal oriented behavior and linear thinking and organization and planning and productivity and achievement and all these things.
(10:19) And of course, then I would affirm that bias by surrounding myself, you know, with with men that allowed me to believe that. But that zero sum game consciousness that you know sort of that baked in competition I now see as being born of wounds that have not been examined. Right? And so when I finally recognize myself that I have really an unresolved fear of men that stems from this biological reality we’re referencing.
(10:56) I could trace pretty much every aspect of my personal and professional existence back to that fear, right? Like it explained so many aspects of my relational life and it explained so many aspects of my professional life, including my activism, right? That I thought was, well, I’m just here to save humanity, you know, from the pharmaceutical overlords or whatever.
(11:17) and you know kind of clear of the bad daddy or whatever could easily have explained you know what it was that I was on a mission about. I want to sort of talk about your experience of this biological vulnerability. Did you ever wake up one day and recognize like wow I don’t feel safe around men right and therefore I don’t feel safe in the world.
(11:42) I don’t feel safe maybe even in my body. And I also want to talk about your relationship with women because I know that you have a lot to say about sister woundology and how it is that we are pit against each other as as women and how this zero sum game consciousness really permeates all of our social interactions including in our in the mothering space right and including with our own children.
(12:07) So what was your you know like I would call it my journey from manhating to man loving. Yeah. I honestly similar. Yeah, I used to like I mean I used to be such a cold hard [ __ ] Like I was I was awful and it was partly because you know I I was like there was so many different things happening at once, right? I had this constant dichotomy in me, this like push and pull of deeply wanting to be loved and cherished and like taken by a man.
(12:37) But I also was like, well that’s being a bad feminist. Like that’s not what the cool girls do. that’s so weak, you know, but I had this really deep deep deep deep craving in me the whole time that I also shamed. So there was this constant shaming of my feminine nature and of my feminine desires.
(12:54) What’s funny is my mom is actually like extremely empathetic, very feminine in that sense, like nurturing, loving, giving, but because I idolize my dad, I was like that is weak, right? And you know, I always say that your mom is very often the depiction of the feminine. Whether or not she’s feminine is irrelevant.
(13:12) Your dad is the depiction of the masculine. And so it was easy for me of like, oh my god, the masculine is way cooler. Look at him. He’s off traveling the world. He makes the money. He wears suits all day. And like, mom, you know, in my mind, she was too emotional. And we would all make fun of her as kids for crying, you know, at the ads on TV and just always giving giving giving loving loving loving because it wasn’t it wasn’t cool.
(13:35) So I feel like, you know, the dichotomy started kind of from a young age. I definitely noticed that it got worse during those teenage years. I also went to an all girls school, which is very common in Australia. I went to an all girls school and so the sisterhood wounding was pretty deep in there. You know that queen bee syndrome, you’ve got to be the best.
(13:55) you want to fit in, but you also want to stand out because you want to be the cool girl kind of thing. I mean, I always felt like a bit of a black sheep. I always was that girl that would just say it how it was. It was this people would always say I was very confident, but it wasn’t deep confidence. It was this outward confidence because I it really was a facade of like self-p protection, if you will. The confidence was very masculine.
(14:18) But what that then also led to is you know I again the dichotomy I deeply wanted to be wanted, loved, chosen, which part of it is biological by men. And so of course you know you’re 15 16 years old at parties and you’re having a few drinks because also in Australia the drinking age is very different but you’re having a few drinks and you know a guy wants to do stuff with you.
(14:43) You’re not you don’t know how to say no you know at that age. And again, I feel like my personality back then was so complicated in the sense that like I would say no sometimes that it was from this very angry, aggressive. It wasn’t from this grounded place of self-respect and confidence because I didn’t actually have self-respect and confidence, right? So even if I didn’t fully want to do something, I wanted the quote unquote love or the, you know, that that kind of gain in the hierarchy of school girls, if you will. I wanted that more than I
(15:16) wanted safety, love in myself, selfrespect, all that kind of stuff. And so really, I would say my relationship with men got extremely bad during my later years when I was a teenager. Like that kind of 16 to 18 kind of age group. And again, I mean, I think a lot of it can be fueled by peer pressure and the sisterhood wounding and all of that.
(15:39) And then it took a boyfriend who was super into Tony Robbins. I met him at a Tony Robbins event. He was super into feminine and masculine. Not this deep embodied way that I now know, right? It was very much like the kind of more surface level you read it in a book. Oh, I tick these boxes of like I’m this, I’m this, I’m this, so therefore I’m masculine.
(15:57) On that note, I’m very passionate even just like with women. It’s not about ticking boxes to be like I’m then feminine. It’s an energy, right? You can love to I give the example sometimes of you know if you really just get off on budgeting and planning the holidays you can still be in your feminine and do that and when we continue to fit ourselves into boxes as women that’s where the suppression comes in my opinion because really like the feminine is just about being the fullest expression of ourselves in our uniqueness. So then when I met him, that
(16:33) was like challenging because I was both, oh, I’ve got to be the cool girl. Don’t be emotional. But he wanted the emotion. Like he was that first permission slip and that first man that actually made me realize, oh, men want soft women. Masculine men don’t want to date another man.
(16:55) Like, if he is a straight man, he wants the opposite of him. And it was both like permission giving like I remember some of those times where it was like that deep craving finally got fulfilled but it also was scary because I felt like what I was doing was so wrong. I felt like allowing him to lead. You know I felt like letting him you know be a bit more dominating in the bedroom and I loved it but it felt so wrong.
(17:24) And I’ve realized that a lot of women that I work with, they have that that that’s what holds them back for so many years. They have that experience of these deep cravings to be, you know, to do less, to surrender more, to receive more, to just be in their feminine more. But then in their head, all that conditioning, whether it’s from social media, whether it’s from their friends, whether it’s from their parenting, that then holds them back from giving themselves permission to just like do what they want as a woman and not need to be this like girl boss independent,
(17:53) I’m a good feminist kind of woman. It’s so funny as you’re talking I’m in like a revery of how many times I remember mostly thinking to myself but sometimes saying that I’m like a really lowmaintenance woman and feeling very proud of that not low maintenance absolutely not abs like literally the opposite and that’s also the gaslight we run on others is that no one in my life would experience me as lowmaintenance okay and so it’s it is that fragmentation that split I mean I remember I was probably in college and
(18:29) we had these these friends who were a couple and the woman who was very demure like sweet kind of a woman and I was like way into my sort of like you know bad [ __ ] era had all male friends like that kind of oh yeah I went through that era too so cool to have all guy friends right yeah I’m in that moment and I remember her boyfriend referencing how long she takes to get ready like that she spends like an hour in the bathroom and I remember feeling like gh like like disgusted and judgmental and also proud that I just like brush my hair and go or
(19:04) whatever as if that is like a point of valor and the programming is so that’s why I’m fascinated by women like us and our journeys and there are many of us right who who are it’s just thawing like something is thawing and there is this humbling moment right where you recognize is that many many layers of your persona are baked in that I baked in that ice.
(19:31) That’s kind of a weird analogy, but are right layered in that ice. Okay? And you don’t know what’s going to be left when the layers have melted. So, it’s it’s such a a profound revisitation of that vulnerability that was always there, except now it’s also on the self-concept level. It’s also on the identity level. And you have a sense that there’s no going back, but you don’t know what it’s like to just be, right? Like just be yourself. Yeah.
(20:04) And so many women are so afraid of letting go of control because they get this like illusion of safety from control, which isn’t actually safety at all. And I’m very big on speaking about this as well, is the importance as a woman of having that inherent safety. I see so many things on Instagram where people are just outsourcing their safety.
(20:22) Let me use my partner to co-regulate. Let me use my this to co-regulate. Like just what does so and so think? What does so and so think? And every like so many women and people like men too, they are getting their sense of confidence, their sense of validation, their sense of safety from people outside of themselves and you know whilst it feels good to be validated by somebody else when that becomes your sense of confidence and validation you have no safety.
(20:50) So then of course you don’t feel safe as a woman in the world because your safety is dependent on how other people are treating you. It’s not about how you are actually treating yourself. Like you don’t have the regulation to stay strong when you need to as a woman because it’s always about your external environment.
(21:09) And the reality is it’s like you know today’s day and age we can’t control everything in our external environment. And if the smallest thing constantly makes you feel unsafe as a woman, then of course you aren’t going to feel safe to be in your feminine. Of course, you’re always going to default to then going into your masculine and putting this armor up around you.
(21:28) I mean, and that was me for so long of, you know, outsourcing that to everybody else. And so it was just it was exhausting. Like it was absolutely exhausting. And so of course you don’t feel safe to speak your truth. Of course you’re afraid of other people’s judgments and whatnot. And so then you create your whole life based on I want other people to be like she’s the cool girl, she’s cool, she’s low maintenance because you don’t feel confident and safe within yourself just as you are.
(21:55) So I’m calling all of my overachieving, underreceiving ladies who have been giving it their all, girl bossing, wifeing, mothering, and somehow instead of feeling happy, content, fulfilled, and grateful feel bitter, overwhelmed, numb, and resentful. So, I’d love to give you some of my hot takes and quick tips to end this overwhelm, to shift your nervous system into a state of receiving so that you can have and hold more and so that you can handle what comes at you with more grace and ease and relaxation.
(22:27) Because a relaxed woman is a powerful woman. So, I’d love to invite you to Exhale, my free master class where I will share reframes to disrupt your burnout patterns. I’ll be offering my signature solution as well as a free gift. So, register at kellybrokenmd.com/exhale or at the link in show notes. I’ll see you there.
(22:50) Beauty, I heard you reference the part of you that, you know, wants to be chosen, wants to be maybe I’ll use the word rescued. And this princess energy lives covertly inside of us. And and if it’s not right, and and and it can even express as the damsel. I mean, I remember in in my last relationship, I would subconsciously cook up all of these dramas around my pets.
(23:17) Like, my cat would go missing and I would be like hysterical in the corner and like need my partner’s help and then I would get to see him like posting signs around the neighborhood and I got to thankfully feel rescued, right? which I couldn’t otherwise invoke or inspire, you know, through the the complimentarity of the dynamic.
(23:43) But if that princess is not offered a seat at the table, she can’t ever become the queen, right? Who actually chooses vulnerability rather than, you know, defaults to this kind of like sideways experience of it. And it’s funny because I think of my eldest daughter who has these masculine competencies. like she is a boss at pretty much everything she tries from athletics to, you know, debate to academics.
(24:13) And then I watch her shift into her receptivity, right? Where everybody carries her [ __ ] around, her boyfriend, me, her sister, right? You know, like she is very very good at receiving service, support, gifts, right? And this combination of knowing that you can meet whatever is coming. It’s like a God inspired confidence, right? But it’s also proficiencies in the world, right? So we’re in this moment where we can explore what it is to play the part of a man in society.
(24:52) Right? Thank you, feminism. And we also can shift and learn how to shift into the experience of choosing that receptivity and vulnerability. And that shapeshifting I think is something that we are uniquely uh poised to explore in this moment in you know in in history. But that’s what’s required I think like that. I actually call that being empoweredly submissive.
(25:21) I think it’s really important for women to understand that the in my opinion the modern version of being a feminine woman is not just like the damsel in distress floating around in a in a dress all day getting chickens in the backyard and baking muffins because whilst and and look for some women that is their ideal life and they get to live that amazing right but we need to remember or we need to understand that as women these days like In my opinion, we all need to make up our own definition of what it looks like to be a feminine woman. Not just for
(25:56) ourselves, but in this season of life, right? Because obviously how your feminine is going to be expressed shows up differently in different stages of life. But this idea of being empoweredly submissive, basically what I’d realized is the only women that can be truly truly truly submissive are the most confident women.
(26:20) because you need to be confident enough to say no, to speak your truth, to draw boundaries. Like all of those things, if you embody them, you then feel safe, to surrender into your feminine, to receive, to ask for help. And so many women, I mean, they do not know how to ask for help. They can’t receive help.
(26:38) They can’t even let a man hold open their door. And it’s just, it’s confusing, right? Because they’re trying to surrender and receive. But what they haven’t what they failed to realize is before you can try to surrender and receive, you need to feel safe to speak your truth. You need to feel that inherent safety, but also the safety of like opening up your throat chakra and speaking up for yourself and putting your foot down and really like, you know, like what you were saying, sometimes we do need to be an independent woman. We do need to
(27:06) sometimes like, you know, well, like try on a bit of what men get to experience in today’s day and age. Like that’s why feminism is so important. But it’s this kind of extreme that I think is causing a lot of confusion for women of I have to be like either basically like a man or I’m the woman baking bread and having chickens in the backyard.
(27:27) And I just think well today’s version of fe of feminine energy isn’t that but what is required for that true empowered submissiveness is that inherent safety which is made up of the boundaries and whatnot. Yeah. It’s interesting because the standing in your truth experience of where you end and somebody else begins, right? This this autonomy that can also coexist with connection is I think tramd on through our parents interaction with our no as little girls, right? Like if you think of Allah Dr. Pat Allen, you know, if you
(28:06) think of a woman’s a feminine essence woman’s role as being expressing her feelings and also what she doesn’t want, right? That is how a man masculine essence man navigates, right? He understands what she doesn’t want, how she feels about that, and then he iterates, right? And so if if as a little girl, you know, because I my my youngest has amazing boundaries, like her her no is so crystal clear that I can only aspire to get to that place before I, you know, before I leave this plane. And reflexively, habitually,
(28:46) through my own programming and my own injuries, it’s been a maturational process for me to learn how to interact with that no when it’s not a no that I want. I was going to say, can I ask how does it make you feel? Cuz I know so many women what they struggle with with their mom is the jealousy, you know, and so yeah, I know you’re all about the, you know, motherhood stuff.
(29:10) So, how does it make you feel when she owns a no where you’re kind of like, I really wish you didn’t say no to that? Yeah, exactly. Well, it’s only because I have this north star that that helps me to frame all of our experiences as for my own emotional maturation and for hers. Right? So, if my north star says that regarding, honoring, bringing curiosity and radical acceptance like a yes to her no and that doesn’t mean acquiescing.
(29:41) It doesn’t mean doing exactly what she says. It’s an energetic, it’s an emotional posture, right? If I understand that as being my facilitation of her femininity, it’s a lot easier, okay, to to frame the experience if I also experience my not liking a no that she’s giving because I’m enthusiastic.
(30:05) And like for example, I uh volunteer at this cat adoption center at a shelter, right? And I get to be around all these kitties. And we used to like pay to go to a cat cafe just to have this experience of being around like tons of kitties, right? And you know, my daughters have very full lives. They have friends.
(30:22) They have stuff to do. And for whatever reason, I’m surprised she doesn’t want to come with me to the cat shelter during my Okay. I’m like, “What are you talking about? Of course you want to go.” And she’s like, “No, I don’t feel like going. I I’m doing this. I’m doing that. I would rather relax.” Whatever it is. And so I tried a bit to coersse, manipulate, you know, convince.
(30:43) And then I recognized, you know, it’s my own inner girl that wants to play with my own kid, right? And have this experience and I can be with her, right? And, you know, I call it entering through the upset. I can have my own moment with whatever it is that I um am experiencing with regard to her. No, because the old model is the zero sum game we’re talking about, right? The old model is I have to get her to see.
(31:10) At least that’s where my shadow live. I’m going to get her to see. And I’m I can be very rhetorically convincing so I can bring all the data points needed, you know, to make my case. And when that’s not the goal, it’s not the agenda. And in fact, I can remember that her no is her feminine. And if I don’t like it, that’s my feminine, you know, then it’s it’s just such a powerful referral.
(31:36) But that perfectly lines up with what we’ve been saying, right, of like the redefining of the feminine. So many women think, well, boundaries are masculine, right? And this is where I just think that I’ve become really big on this in the last couple of years, just because I’m sure you can agree, Kelly, like you started this work a long time ago.
(31:57) I started it back in, you know, working with people in 2018. And so I’ve kind of I’ve seen the shift that’s almost been required with the defining of feminine and masculine. I feel like the more kind of like, okay, this is feminine, this is masculine, served women back in, you know, 2018, 2019, even 2020, and now I’m needing to be like, but there are a bajillion nuances, right? And one being the boundaries thing of like I don’t actually think it serves women anymore to really be like this is feminine, this is masculine. They have to find their
(32:29) own feminine and like that alignment, that feeling of just coming home to your body and to yourself to me that is feminine. And part of that is boundaries and discernment and decisiveness. And there is a bit of direction in that. and like a powerful feminine woman, yes, technically she has the quote unquote masculine traits, but does it serve us to be like, “Oh, well then I’ve been in my masculine all day if I’ve been making decisions if it’s been from a heart space.
(32:57) ” So, I love that you also just said that you honoring her no is you honoring her feminine like that. No, a woman speaking her truth is still a woman in her feminine. This isn’t about becoming a doormat to your man. Well, that’s why I love that we share the terminology of safety because if we agree that women are not biologically safe as a default in the world and that perhaps men do incarnate with that so-called privilege, I never use that word, but I actually mean it in this case.
(33:32) Then perhaps it is their role to confer that safety containment if you want to call it to men, women, and children in the world. And it is ours to be a ready vessel for you know receiving that which is really about our relationship to God right like that that’s our own inner work to get to the place where we can surrender because we accept what is and we see our place in it and we’re not fighting with what is in front of us.
(34:02) So I love the I love the terminology actually uh Kimmy inch I don’t know if you know her work she’s a kink educator and met her okay on the pod before and she’s a friend and she uses the terminology of leader follower and even though there’s a million antipodess we could explore and terminology we could use for me that’s very very clarifying because in my CEO role I am leading Right? In my role as mother, I’m leading and in my relationships and in many little instances in the world where I’m consulting somebody for expertise or I’m reaching out for help, I may be
(34:44) following. And so understanding what shape my body takes, what language do I use, you know, what expressions befall my face, right? And understanding the signatures of th those two states is really all we’re talking about so that you can comport yourself with intentionality and also recognize the conditions that are necessary for you to fall into this following, you know, posture. Yeah, I love that.
(35:13) Yeah, it’s it’s funny. I want to tell um this quick story that I tell all the time just to see what you think about this because I was speaking at a Western Price conference a couple years ago and it was big. There were like 2,000 people in the room and you know the demographic is typically I would say a lot of women in their even 50s maybe 60s.
(35:38) Okay, so like o you know sort of the OGs of the ancestral nutrition world. Anyway, so somebody’s asking me a question about probably gender politics or something at the end of my presentation. And as a part of my response, I just say the phrase, I don’t know a woman in my own personal life who doesn’t want to be well-andled by a trustworthy man. That’s exactly what happened.
(36:04) But I love I love that. It was this one. Of course you do. Of course you do. And so do I. It was like this wave. It was like a ecstatic wave that swept across this room of 2,000 people. Was that filmed? Like that needs to you know what I mean? Because like that with that clip that’s so Yeah.
(36:24) Because that reaction and response from the audience like perfectly shows the importance of us getting out of this [ __ ] conversation of toxic masculinity. Like in my opinion, the whole thing of toxic masculinity is toxic because anyone that understands where the phrase actually came from of toxic masculinity understands that it has been so far removed.
(36:48) Like originally toxic masculinity uh Sheffield Beard I think was the guy the psychologist his name he created it for to protect women, children and other men against incredibly violent men. But now we’re using it for the man that holds open the [ __ ] door. Do you know what I mean? No, it’s and and it’s kind of like feminism.
(37:10) It’s we’ve gone so far from the original definition and then you say that all the women are just like oh like a relaxation. It’s like that in my opinion that’s also why women don’t feel safe in today’s world because when we’re walking down the street and one guy’s cat calling us, we don’t know whether the other men around us would come and help us if we needed help.
(37:27) I don’t know about you, but I’ve had that experience a couple times where it’s like, I actually would love to know that the men around me would help me, but I don’t know whether they would help me if I needed help. And that’s really sad. It’s like, we need men for safety, like you’ve just said, right? We need those good men.
(37:47) But if those good men are so afraid of losing their jobs, of being called a creep, of being told like like, “I don’t need your help, you sexist pig.” Why would they come over to help us when we need help? So, of course, that just continues to exacerbate this cycle of women not feeling safe in the world as women walking down the street.
(38:05) Yeah, it’s interesting because I I’m always looking through the lens of victim consciousness. And I love that you talk about this. Yeah, it’s it’s just relevant. If you want to end the existential terror of the child, right, like within you and provide that safety that we’re talking about, then you you want to be able to identify it, right? And so when I look at, you know, toxic masculinity, I look at the terminology around patriarchy and I look at even the way the term narcissist is used to dehumanize and devalue, other, judge,
(38:39) and condemn men. And not to say that it doesn’t have a descriptive role in, you know, pattern recognition relationally. However, that all represents what I call the erotic caress of the enemy. It’s like an obsession with the enemy that you’re pretty sure you can’t subdue, but you’re going to keep trying, you know, to to fight the good fight on behalf of women and further isolate yourself, further embitter yourself and rigidify your, you know, your body into this this tight cold form.
(39:17) And you you called yourself what did you call yourself? Like a cold pitch or something? Oh, yeah. I was I was ab I was a cold hot [ __ ] But I second what you what you’ve said just there, Kelly, because I talk about this in my book of like women are fighting just for the sake of fighting. The fight is [ __ ] done. We get we have equal rights. We get paid the same.
(39:35) Anyone that thinks that equal pay doesn’t exist. I’m like, you haven’t you don’t actually know the research because equal pay does exist. You know, like we we are there. So why are we still fighting? We are fighting because people are addicted to the dopamine hit and the adrenaline they get from being the victim.
(39:51) They are fighting because they’re addicted to having something to be angry about. It makes them feel more righteous, more important as a woman, as a woman, right? Rather than actually doing what’s what would actually make them happy, which would be truly coming to terms with the beauty of being a woman that it’s it’s easier.
(40:11) It’s more of an adrenaline rush to continue to complain about how hard women have it. And I’m not saying that sometimes being a woman isn’t hard, but sometimes being a man is really hard. Oh, for sure. Maybe maybe harder. Yeah, especially today’s day and age. I would not want to be a man.
(40:26) You are in a bad place if you are a man that is a masculine man and wants to like even just the amount of men that don’t feel safe going up to a woman in a bar and asking for her number or saying hi. I’m like, that’s sad. You know, it’s sad that the statistics literally show that men don’t want to be put like men in senior positions do not want to be put in in situations with women because they are so afraid of losing their jobs because something will accidentally be misinterpreted.
(40:52) It’s like men are literally saying, “I would rather not grow, not not go up the corporate ladder because I don’t want to risk my job.” Like that is sad that we’re at that place now where we can’t just like accept humanness. Sometimes we misinterpret things. People don’t always mean what we think they mean.
(41:11) People aren’t always trying to be bad people and get into our pants all the time. Like I’m serious though. We’re in a moment of evolving for sure. And thankfully, I wonder if we could talk a bit about this concept of masculine leadership and whether that is in the bedroom, whether it’s in the boardroom, whether it’s in society, you know, where you have come to and what you think it takes for a woman to receive that leadership.
(41:44) You have a book coming out April 8th called Becoming Her. And I know that you are passionate about supporting women in this experience of their femininity. So, how how does that look in real life according to you? And how do women put themselves in a position, create the conditions, or otherwise ready themselves for that kind of leadership once they know and acknowledge that that’s their heart’s yearning, right? So, we’re not here to convince any woman that that’s actually somewhere in there, but let’s say that awareness is already
(42:22) in place. Yeah. So, you’re saying like how can she like receive his masculine leadership? Yeah. And what do you think uh masculine leadership looks like? Like how how does it actually manifest in today’s Okay. Okay. So, let’s start with that. So, I think one thing for today’s version of masculine leadership for women that’s really important is to ensure that you’re not thinking the only way a man can provide and protect is through money.
(42:46) Because so many women are becoming the breadwinners or becoming, you know, they’re at least earning half, you know, or 40% of the household income. And I know I’ve noticed that’s become a real thing where a lot of women feel like I have to choose between love or success and like they can’t have both. And so I think that’s a really important thing of realizing that men these days can provide and protect for us.
(43:09) And I just think about it even in terms you know of my husband like he works for me. So not only am I the bread winner what he gets paid is through me. And I do not feel like it is my job to keep the roof over our head in this house even though I pay the mortgage. I am absolutely not the provider or the protector because there’s so many other ways for a man to provide and protect, not just being the one that goes to work, brings the bread home, that kind of thing.
(43:34) I think that is a really important Are you going to say something? I want to double click on this because this is very very um interesting to me because I probably am one of those women who has of course because I’m you know my daughters are teenagers I’ve been a career woman instead of a woman with a career my entire life and I’ve recognized that I sacrificed many experiences of love relationally for my success and that my success related fulfillment was rather hollow relative to my relational potential as a So I have come to recognize at least for
(44:10) myself that when I am working let’s say and any of my money is going to prov of course for me in my personal life is 100% of my money okay so I’m in the extreme of that um that that will be like a an entanglement with my own creative energy that I’m no longer interested in and I have been the bread winner and provider my whole life for for yeah so I have you know sort of explored okay so what is it to make money as a woman but not provide okay well that’s an easy yeah that’s an easy way to enter into the most conventional
(44:50) version of this dynamic we’re talking about where there is a provider it’s called you know your husband and he is the one who is um occupying that field he’s managing the finances he’s doing that kind of planning but what I hear you saying is which I love that sentence that’s why I want to double click on this is that I actually am the provider in in you know on paper but I don’t feel responsible for the providership so I wonder if you can share a bit about how how what that means and how that looks like does that
(45:25) mean that he if you’re open to sharing this yeah I love this conversation about being I say the feminine female bread winner yeah yeah he manages the bargains to various, you know, invoices and responsibilities that you have. Does it just mean that, you know, it’s it’s it happens to be the case that the actual fiat currency is coming in through your, you know, your name, but he is in in many ways the one who is translating that into a life for you both.
(45:55) Like, what do you mean by the fact that you’re not providing? Yeah. And I also should clarify by saying that like even in the beginning of our relationship, I was always a bread winner, right? And I think it can be can be a little bit even more challenging for couples where it gets switched because you’ve had the experience of it being another way.
(46:12) So I want to acknowledge like that’s kind of almost a different situation. But yeah, I mean for I mean here’s the thing I think you can agree Kelly is that when you are doing like your life your life’s purpose and your work it feels easier to just let the money come through right and also when you’re in that feminine magnetism right and a really big thing as working women is that when we are in that creative flow and we’re in our magnetism all the amazing opportunities come in the ideas come in all that kind of stuff whether you’re working for
(46:45) somebody else by the way, or whether you’re working for yourself, right? And so the more that he takes stress off my plate, I can make more money with ease. And I think about it all the time of like, you know, just even little things that he that he does, like if he does my laundry or if he’s filling up the car with gas, he pays the mortgage.
(47:05) Like I don’t know how to be an adult basically because he does everything in regards to that. And so what that means is that, you know, prior to meeting him, not only was I making the money for myself and providing for myself, but I also was paying the bills, doing the like I was doing all those extra things as well.
(47:24) So my stress levels were a lot higher. I didn’t have not just not even like I didn’t have as much time to work, but I didn’t have as much time to just be in the creative flow, right? And I classify sometimes work just like laying in the bath because that’s where then the ideas come in and that idea then you know spurs the next thing and whatnot.
(47:43) But other examples it’s like yeah he meets with the um like I wanted to invest money for so many years before I met him. But I couldn’t wrap my head around I know some women they really get the investing thing. I just don’t and I could not wrap my head around understanding stock market investing all that kind of stuff but he knew that was a really important thing to me.
(48:03) So, he gets on all of the meetings with our financial adviser and investor, and he’s the one investing all of, you know, my money that I had before I met him and now our money because it’s combined. And I don’t have to [ __ ] deal with it. But he’ll just tell me, “Oh, by the way, babe, like the money that I put into like the the um that I put into this account and then so and so invested it him it made you $14,000 this month.
(48:24) ” And I’m just like, “Vibe, right?” Like, and I don’t have to do any of it. And that’s providing and protecting even right now with the book launch you know you know he works for me so that helps a little bit he does every meeting he’s like nope you’re not allowed on this meeting like you don’t need to be you don’t need to be burdened with this information you know he is solving the problems dealing with everything and for those of you that don’t have your man working for you I mean it could just simply be he makes
(48:49) dinner he does the laundry for you he tells you it’s late go upstairs go to bed like even when will say that to me of he’ll text me if he’s out or something, you better be in bed right now. You know, and it’s 9:30. And I love that because what it’s doing is it’s closing tabs in my head. It’s making me feel like my man is looking out for me versus, oh, you know, she can just look after herself.
(49:13) I don’t have to look after her at all. And like, yeah, I can look after myself, but you agree with me, Kelly, and that it’s very nice when a man is like, go have a bath. Here’s dinner. Like, go get a massage. That kind of stuff. And so, you know, I said this earlier, but we have devalued the feminine.
(49:30) It means that we devalue the time that it takes us as women to cook dinner, to do the laundry. We don’t factor that in to our day. We see that as being unproductive. We haven’t gotten as much done during the day. But we also devalue when a man is doing something quote unquote more traditionally feminine because of kind of the devaluing of feminine energy.
(49:51) So even when Hal does my laundry or makes our bed or does something that’s more quote unquote feminine, I’m seeing the value of that and the appreciation of that because I don’t have to be the one to then do it. I get to just focus on being my in my creative flow and I find it very easy to be in that state. Also, last thing I’ll say on this is I don’t feel the pressure to make money because we’ve had conversations so many times of if I ever decided I need to stop working for a year or whatever it is, there is no pressure on me to be the one to make
(50:27) money. He would then go back and, you know, go back to work. He would get another job. Like, it is We’ve had that conversation so many times. That’s why I don’t feel like the pressure is on me to keep the roof over our head. Obviously, if you’re a single mother, it’s a little bit of a different situation because it’s like you don’t have somebody else there to, you know, be putting the roof over your head.
(50:51) But I think that’s where women need to get better at asking for help, right? Because if you had a housekeeper, for example, that’s then taking something off your plate so that that time could be used for rest or creativity or something else. You know, I think a lot of women, going back to the victimization, if you immediately tell yourself, well, I don’t have the means to do that, well, you’re immediately just inhibiting yourself from receiving help.
(51:17) There is a way that you can receive more help from whether it’s a housekeeper, whether it’s a friend, but we don’t even allow ourselves to think about how would I like to receive help. 100%. I think we think that is a weakness. Yeah. Yeah. I love this. I love this nuance and it really speaks to the cardinal indicator I’ve come to recognize in the choice to enter into relationship especially as you know a a single woman mom you know sort of looking down the prospect of a particular you know pairing.
(51:54) It’s like if this man makes your life easier and your system exhales, then you probably have that polarity in place. You probably have that dynamic in place. And that was never even part of my value structure, you know, historically. So, of course, you know, it didn’t inform my choices. But what I hear from you is that your partner is essentially managing, directing and decisionmaking, which is what most female CEOs have to, you know, it’s taken me a decade in the digital game, you know, to build a team and to appoint leaders, you know, to my
(52:35) team that can confer that to my system. true leadership, you know, directorial vision and decision- making that I trust better than my own. So, what I hear is that you bake that into your relationship and that is even better. Yeah. And I do want to say like, my god, I’m not saying, oh, easy solution, just go work with your partner.
(52:56) Like, no, no, no, that is not for the faint of heart. And it took years for it to us to get to a place where I’m like, oh, thank God this is so good that he works for me. Um, you know, that was a whole process in and of itself. But yeah, like just women, like as women, we need to learn to be able to trust people again, you know, and I get it because I’ve been burned so many times, especially when it comes to running your own business, right? And trusting employees and then things not working out and that can really make you then feel like, oh, it’s
(53:25) just easier to do it all myself. But I think that there is a lot of there’s a lot of nuance, a lot of context, but there is a lot in there that women need to consider these days of like how can I ask and receive more support and just even just giving themselves permission to acknowledge what they’re desiring in that regard. Totally.
(53:45) And perhaps, you know, the key to trusting other people is really trusting yourself to know who you can trust, right? And and enter that dynamic with Amazing. So, I’d love to leave women with sort of an entry point or two that you regard as being essential for women to make contact with this experience of femininity that you are inspired by and living and teaching about.
(54:20) So yeah, what are what are a couple of tips or even just want you know kind of a place to start because I know that you wrote a whole book about it uh which we’re excited to you know to share and and link to. What are some entry points? I think one of them I’ve kind of said but I want to really pull out and acknowledge and that is actually acknowledging what your heart is craving and giving yourself permission to acknowledge that.
(54:46) And I say that as the first thing because I think that that can then help direct you into what we talked about of your own version of feminine energy versus oh let me give you a list of a few things to do and it’s like okay well that might work for one person but it’s not going to work for another person and there needs to be like kind of you know fluidity in advice giving I feel like these days cuz people just take what they see and then they do it even if it doesn’t work for them right so I think number one is actually just sitting with like what do I want
(55:13) like what am I deeply craving and acknowledging that and giving yourself permission to realize that in today’s day and age. If you are a woman listening to this that lives in a country where men and women have the same equal rights, which we do in the US, then you’re allowed to go after that.
(55:34) You might need to be a bit creative, but you need to go after that. And then the second thing is you need to then, and this can kind of happen naturally from the first one, is what are you afraid of with stepping into your feminine energy? Because that’s where the trauma, the wounds, that’s where the work lies, right? Instagram makes it seem like, oh, okay, here’s a list of things that I need to do in order to be feminine because the first step really is obviously healing your trauma, your wounds, the shadows, all of that kind of stuff was really important.
(56:05) And I say this because I think Instagram these days is a really, really bad source of information when it comes to this work because it can make us feel like, oh, all I have to do in order to be in my feminine is fulfill this list of things to do and just add a pile of more [ __ ] to your to-do list.
(56:23) Now you’ve just gone onto your masculine. Right? Now you’ve gone on to your masculine. Like that’s not doing anything at all because now all you’ve done is put more things on your shoulders. Instead, the way to really get into your feminine as a woman is to heal all of the stuff that made you feel like it was unsafe to be in your natural state of alignment.
(56:44) And part of that is healing your relationship with men, healing the sisterhood wounding, healing your stuff with your parents. Like that is all part of it. So when people when women say like, “Yeah, how do you get into your feminine?” I’m like, uh, literally start with healing your relationship with a masculine and start with healing all of the stuff that makes you feel unsafe to be a woman in today’s world.
(57:04) And then the best bit is you don’t need a [ __ ] list of things to do to be in your feminine because you naturally step into your feminine. And then it’s the most aligned, unique version for you. You’re not just taking yourself out of one box and putting yourself into another. Amen. Could not agree more.
(57:24) And I just love, you know, that we’ve traveled such different lives and come to such similar conclusions. It’s just delightful to me that something is crystallizing for us as women and that we can pivot. And it’s it’s especially uh facilitated by more and more women on the same tip doing the same kind of really vulnerable work uh with with hard courage.
(57:50) So thank you Monica. I am super excited for your book to be out there proclaiming uh these lived and embodied truths for women and I appreciate your your beautiful voice in the conversation. Thank you, Kelly, for having me. This is beautiful. [Music] I feel [Music] like I feel
