(00:01) [Music] I’m Dr Kelly Brogan you may know me as a New York Times bestselling author of a book with an exploding pill on the cover Renegade psychiatrist pul dancer or honorary member of the disinformation Dozen what can I say I’m a born provocator I’ve spent most of my recent life exposing deceptions connecting dots and discovering the secret places my her victim is still waiting to be liberated and now I feel called to help you reclaim all of your parts your health your sexuality your power and your expression so that you can finally truly
(00:43) own yourself I want to ignite in you that inner knowing and the pulsing Vitality that lives beneath your disempowerment disconnection and resentment so that you can audaciously courageously and playfully alchemize your struggle into the specific pleasure of Who You Are this is Reclamation radio hi and welcome back to Reclamation radio I am giddy to be here with Ryan Schwarz we’re just exploring the 10,000 tendrils that have brought us into each other’s spheres over the years and we are actually meeting for the first time
(01:25) live right now so I am mostly interested in focusing on a new book that he has put out and this extraordinarily essential subject matter uh however there are many many things that we could be focusing on he is probably most known for his copyrighting Mastery and has been dubbed by I don’t know like 10 different people that I know in the field as like the resource when it comes to copyrighting which you know if you’re in the digital entreprene space that is quite an Accolade to secure so we will not be chatting about that today so much
(02:07) um because a book that he put out under what would it be like a pen name yeah let’s call it a pen name I call it a signature ponm um and he has he has consented to reveal his identity in this interview um called Shadow money uh found its way onto my desk recently and it was in the perfect timing because I um have just probably in the past I don’t know six months or so considered uh the possibility that I have something to say about the subject myself and you know there are few topics I was just talking to to my friend Tom
(02:48) Cowan about this because he was like you know let’s let’s talk about our money situations right like nobody ever talks about that like there are so many other uh taboo topics and taboo topics are pretty much my bread and butter uh that feel more accessible than this and part of it the block for me was like I felt that there was um some sort of legitimacy that I had to have under my belt before I could speak to the relationship that we all have with this green permission slip you know or pixelated digital permission slip that
(03:26) we call money and so recently I taught a master class on the subject uh called audacious entrepreneurship and what I like to talk about is exactly what this book is about which is the psychospiritual dimensions of this of course there’s I mean you’re a strategy guy right so you could have spoken to us about how to strategize around scaling and expanding uh into greater and greater abundance but what you have been focused on and penned in this text is really about right relationship if I could summarize with this so-called thing um you say that
(04:07) first all hi yeah hey good to meet you seven years later oh my God right I’m a little excited um so you say Ryan that money’s desire is to be healed right and liberated through relationship with its stewards which I absolutely um resonate with and so I thought you know there’s a lot of different perspectives on what money is and you and I I don’t know if I’m like exposing you here but you and I um traffic a bit in the conspiratorial Realms at least you have some passing familiarity with some of the things that
(04:44) I am up to uh and you and I probably have been exposed to people who question the entire system um look at currency as you know Fiat that is unbacked and what are we doing here and it’s all just a slippery slide to the digital social currency prison that we are on the way to so why would we ever be incentivized to develop a conscious relationship with money isn’t it itself right um the problem so I’d love to sort of start out with where you’ve come to about like what is it what is it in your conceptualization and then you know we
(05:25) can go from there because a lot of the relational stuff that you uh talk about in in this book um I think is really where you know the rubber meets the road well there are countless conceptualizations right and we could have this conversation with 50 different people get 50 different concepts maybe some of them will be Loosely related um but ultimately each conceptualization creates its own type of thought form right or morphogenetic field right and none of them are precisely it right and none of them are precisely a clean
(05:59) non-dist Ed viewer experience so in my book and in my direct experience I was really careful to make a distinction between money right as a higher self as a collective Consciousness that is right in its pristine cleanliness right and these individuated bundles of money Consciousness that have been encoded with different paradigms and different systems and different imprints based on the systems that they have partaken in right and where I got a really clear message right was that money as a Consciousness was just like sick and
(06:41) tired of being lumped in with the oppressive systems that it itself has been abused in right and how there’s this wholesale denial and rejection of money when money is like wait a second right like I’ve been tormented and abused and encoded Within These same systems and rejecting me isn’t the solution to being empowered right so to me there’s a CO Ascension right between you know human empowerment right and the empowerment of money Consciousness and the means that it provides right within that Journey so yeah what is money right
(07:17) it’s been a question that like I’ve heard asked so many times right and there’s so many different answers I love the way you phrase it as a permission slip right I think that what it represents and what it enables and empowers is a permission very much to live right we are interacting with money right now the table that my hands are on this computer this conversation is empowered by money we it’s it’s an Inseparable force and why would we want to create further distance from something that is lifegiving in its
(07:48) cleanest most purest form so I like I like the definition of means money as means um means for our message means for our well-being means for our relational health means for our personal health and our sovereignty um and I love orienting around it as a Consciousness that desires and requires to some degree our participation in its healing right I love that sense of responsibility and protectorship right towards this Energy of Money of stewardship towards it of containment towards it instead of being lazy and rejecting of it um one part of
(08:27) my journey was like um you know I was for years so loose and neglectful right I’d have money lying in this account and in this account and I didn’t want to be bothered to Steward it right I’m like that’s not my responsibility right it’s kind of like I don’t really love the management of money I don’t really love you know recirculating it into all these different assets or these vehicles it just didn’t appeal to me and I had this realization really kind of over last year is like how absent that stewardship and that containment is right if money
(09:06) is a feminine Force right how much does it require that directionality right that feeling of safety that feeling of you can exist within this container right where you can flourish and do your thing right so I love the sense of responsibility that’s been adopted with the message that’s come through I love this I mean I I I just recorded a podcast called um feminine homecoming and what I spoke about is all of exactly what you’re saying like all of these feminine energies that want to come home right where water I mean
(09:41) there’s so I just had V Austin on the podcast there’s so many of us recognizing the inherent um intelligence of of water whether it’s you know the the natural world whether it’s the these um forces related to child birth there’s so many feminine homecomings and and it is that stewardship it’s that containment I love using that word myself and I think that when I feel into why people might have resistance to this conversation especially in you know my audience where there’s there is a lot of concern uh about you know the status quo
(10:17) and uh being complicit with that which you are fundamentally uninterested and consenting to you know I I can feel like when you say Well it it it it’s a permission slip there is a system that allows you to have things and it it’s a means and then what if you don’t want to support such a system and you think that land should be you know habitable without uh these green permission slips and you think that we should be able to participate in barter and engage in sacred economics and you have all these beautiful Concepts um bubbling up in
(10:51) your heart and participating in money and looking at it and counting it and budgeting it and having a relationship with it rather than the neglect you’re talking about just feels like a betrayal almost of your your fantasy your vision your your hope for the future and totally like I get that totally if anyone is feeling that and there’s a bit of what I call like eggs from the hardware store right like if you’re insisting that it’d be different this is how it is right now this is how it is right now right um we
(11:26) cannot live on land without you know participating in the fiat currency system so this is how it is right now and if you’re insisting that it’d be different you’re insisting that they sell eggs where they don’t right and so part of what I’m hearing from you is that there’s an opportunity to reframe as a more complex like a mixed object as they would say in Psychology right like rather than the childlike projections and you talk a lot about projection in this book of the you know the bad thing out there that you
(12:06) still have a relationship with it’s like breaking up with your boyfriend but he’s still living on the couch so what are you gonna do about it right yeah yeah I mean there’s a cleanup phase to be had right and our idealism tends to outpace the speed in which we can clean up and purify and re-encode these systems right so like one thing I dive into in the book and I had another really rich conversation about it over the weekend with a dear friend was like you know if the banking systems collapsed tomorrow right if the whole
(12:33) Fiat system crumbled tomorrow right and we went into a barber system right would there be more Harmony or more chaos right would there be more destruction or would there be more collaborative um Natures right has human consciousness on a wide enough scale evolved to the point where we can actually be productive and flourish Within These systems of sacred economics for example um my sense right is that there’d be more Devastation in the short term right and that there’s still a cleanup job to be had internally
(13:06) right and really kind of addressing what would we do right like what are the dormant Shadow patterns still um available within our expression right that haven’t necessarily been enabled or empowered right but is there a part of me is there a fragment within me that gets off right in controlling someone else through financial needs right is there a part of me that longs for that like you to everyone once I have enough wealth right is there a part of me that even abuses and Trust control and manipulate others through money
(13:39) right and until I am all but certain right that I have cleaned up those parts that I have brought those parts back into wholeness holding on to this idealism before I’m even ready to cleanly participate in it feels like a bit of a leap totally I I have experienced this and I’m sure you have too just even with intentional Community right like so there since 2020 there’s so many that are cropping up and I have I have that longing yearning within me you know to live in I live in an HOA now believe it or not and I say believe it or not
(14:13) because I am not somebody who participates well easily or readily in these kinds of um structures but I I do and you know I don’t I wouldn’t say I’m particularly friendly with any of the like whatever we’re superficially neighbors and if these were my best friends right you know or you all it would be so delicious a life and so this longing that we have for Community I think you probably know folks who have tried it and it ain’t the thing right it’s not really um in lived experience what people often hope and imagine it to
(14:47) be because my assertion is probably the same as yours we’re not ready like we’re not ready there is still more for us to uh work with in the here and now in what’s available in this you know dumpster f that is our like current um economic system so that we can get to know our ourselves better and right if self-discovery is the imperative then we still have opportunity here that you’re suggesting we mine so I have a couple of quotes I want to share if that’s cool um and one is I just thought was great so this is German to what we’re talking
(15:24) about so you you talk about this this shift you know that we’re in the midst of and why we may have this opportunity that you and I are are referencing so you say prior to 100 years ago the wealthiest people in the world were almost exclusively monarchs oppressive tycoons tyrants slavers and War mongers it would be nearly impossible to penetrate the upper echelons of global wealth in a single lifetime today the Thousand richest people in the world include artists athletes entertainers innovators inventors entrepreneurs and
(15:55) fashion designers it must be noted how unprecedented and massive this shift is the speed in which wealth sorry massive wealth is transferred is also unprecedented so what I here when I read that is it’s almost like the the the choice paralysis phenomenon right it’s like the burden of opportunity and this sense that we all have that we can jump classes you know that we can um play in places and Fields that we are not supposed to you know with our programming right so if I grew up um um how do we want to call it um lower
(16:38) socioeconomic class underprivileged whatever the PC term is right if I grew up that way and then I you know become a multi-millionaire I am going to be living with the programs that I don’t belong in this multi-millionaire class and here I am so how might I you know manifest subconsciously or semic consciously the conditions for my like affirming that sense I don’t belong here right like look here I am I have all the same things as all these people and yet I still don’t feel like I fit in I still feel like the black sheep so I see this
(17:13) a lot as um you know I work with female entrepreneurs and as in my own experience and I haven’t never thought about it that way you know that we are in this um this unprecedented opening of of yeah there’s such an audacious element to that that I love tying that word um and why I call it audacious right is making that leap feels bold and to many who don’t make that leap and many actually who do and end up kind of stuck with a sense of financial survivors guilt right is like that I don’t belong there isn’t only their worthiness right
(17:55) it’s a sense that they have somehow betrayed their parents right or betrayed past friends or past lovers even right people who just couldn’t and can’t and won’t and refuse to see them at that level of success because it feels like too much of an attack of who they were and how they live their lives right we talk about generational curses they’re not esoteric things right it’s like how do you feel your mother right or your sister or your brother or your past lover would feel about your success now and if you feel like they can’t witness
(18:31) you in that right they just don’t want to see you at that level of success because it triggers too much in them and you haven’t yet created that sense of separation and that audacity to make that claim cleanly right not just like the you I’m doing my thing right you know while bypassing the elements or the strands of guilt that have you hooked into that um but within that audacious claim is a lot of inner work and a lot of inner healing and I’ve always loved how not all the time but in many cases and for whatever reason it
(19:05) appears in my field more with female entrepreneurs how much healing happens within that Ascent towards wealth right um it’s just a beautiful phenomenon to witness right how much gets cleaned up how much gets owned as one ascends and moves up that Financial scale um yeah yeah it’s it’s uh I I just got off a call actually with a bunch of um female entrepreneurs in a in a container and one of the gals was talking about how she feels um inhibited in her marketing because her mom has expressed disappointment in her and her interests
(19:44) you know sort of like a you know a a Christan Christian rather like meets um the esoteric kind of a a riff I guess in terms of their value systems and the you know mother wound if you will like as we consider it often suggests or requires that as a woman you stay small you attenuate right so that you can remain in connection and through commiseration typically like with your mama and what’s what’s funny is that here we are very much in you know if you want to talk polarity very much in in a masculine comportment as women as Doms as
(20:25) entrepreneurs in this space and what we are ultimately here to alchemize in many ways is is that capacity to be seen in our audacity right like the capacity to be seen as big as bold um as self-expressed which is all you know feminine maturation so we we’re also in this this moment you know right as women since I’m you were saying you work with a lot of them where we have the opportunity through our relationship to business and um entrepreneurship to heal like lineage level stuff right and yeah it it’s um not for the faint of
(21:05) heart uh so I you talk a lot about the this this Collective um Shadow projections sure that we engage when it comes to money and I do think that that confers a lot of safety to many of us to imagine that people who have money uh or are whatever you know sort of echelon of wealth that is beyond your own uh are fill in the blank right like are to be derided for whatever whatever reason like they are shallow they they’re disconnected they don’t care they’re selfish they’re you know materialists whatever it is um how
(21:49) do how do you feel like if you could generalize that our sort of like unconscious Shadow projections right because those are conscious like it’s like is the root of all evil stuff like that’s sort of in the field um but what about the sort of like the shadow projections that are less known to us and how they might impact us right like what struggles have you seen even in your in your work um supporting business owners like what struggles have you seen that you say okay like that person’s got right that kind of money stuff going on yeah so
(22:26) certainly hitting wealth ceilings right has a lot to do with a fear of who you’ll become and how life will reorient at that stage right and kind of this we’ll call it a less than conscious fear right that that expression or what gets expressed there isn’t necessarily going to be optimal right or effective and it may destroy a family or destroy your life or have you hated or get rejected or all sorts of things right um on the masculine side or on the side of like male entrepreneurs um one pattern has been really
(23:01) fascinating um and that has been that of financial punishment um the control mechanism the desire to withhold money right and withhold the sense of safety that money provides right has often been utilized or weaponized against partners and wives as a um for lack of better word kind of like a get back at use strategy for for withholding sexuality right what they perceive to be withholding sexuality so it’s like I’m not getting the intimacy I deserve here right and there’s such a harsh entitlement there when I hear the
(23:37) languaging right that I deserve and it’s like well why do you deserve that right like and um so much comes out of that right but like this subtle line of punishment of not wanting to even attract wealth right or get to the next level of their business because of the sting and upset that comes in having to share that right they almost don’t want their Partners to be the beneficiary of a success that they feel had nothing to do with them and to me that’s like the most widespread and devastating one I’ve seen on the male entrepreneurship side
(24:11) because these aren’t quote unquote bad people right these aren’t people that you would like see on the surface and be like oh he has that right these are the stuff that comes out through deeper inquiry right and like why are you afraid right of generating a million dollars in your business this year like what does life look like at that stage and one exercise anyone could go through right is like choose that number that represents your next stage of wealth that is available to you right like call it half a million
(24:40) dollars a million dollar $10 million doesn’t really matter right and you can Envision that field of money right kind of coming closer and closer and closer to your body and notice at what stage of proximity tension arises right notice where within your field that wall goes up right that contraction then like tune into that contraction what voices are present within it what is the story within it what are the rejections within it because there are many quote unquote good reasons to reject wealth right there are many
(25:13) Shadows that may get activated when in the presence of such an amplifying force in the presence of means right it gives these shadow aspects these unhealed fragments the means to animate and that animation could be quite destructive right and there could be very good reason to kind of Shield yourself off from it and that’s kind of where wealth ceilings come into play totally I I love I mean I relate to this probably again because of that sort of um the cross-pollination of the polarities in the entrepreneurial space like even
(25:47) there have been times as I’ve done Shadow work on my relationship with money where in my business structure so when 2020 came I stepped down I decided okay if I’m going to judge all the totalitarians and uh authoritarians in the world then where am I you know holding that energy in my own life so I stopped telling my girls to clean their room or like eat a bite of broccoli and I actually stepped down as a CEO and I decided I was going to do only like a REV share partnership model and um see how that felt instead right so we’re all
(26:22) in it together folks like I’m not on high you know and there were benefits to that and and challenges to that for sure and I remember wondering you know subconsciously would I be um you know attracting less Revenue because I’m sharing it now right so like you know like is that possible that a program that says if I have something that somebody else doesn’t have I have to give it even if I don’t want to right so this this idea I think especially for you know little girls um that says you know you must give what you don’t want to
(27:00) give right and even though that’s irrational and these are agreements and contracts and you could be talking about you know male client who’s married and of course he loves this woman like why would he not want to provide for her that doesn’t make any sense but we’re talking about programs and that’s where you can see that money um is about you know these Realms of Consciousness that want to be exposed to the light of um awareness and it’s it’s so much deeper than just right what it appears and what comes up for me is just to acknowledge
(27:35) right how much grace there actually is in that process like one story that comes to mind I think you shared it on one of your videos right was how um you had like a year set of like seven or eight months when you were really down on your business and then you actually looked at your numbers right and it was like a phenomenal year right in September the story I told myself was was that you know so I just left my my marriage and I have never been like a single woman since I’ve been you know employed I mean I started
(28:08) working at a bagel store when I was 10 so how do I want to say this in my adult life I have never been single okay while I’ve been working like in this field and with this business and so I had that program arise that said you can’t do this without a man next to you whatever why I don’t know whatever reasoning maybe I need his gaze like maybe I need his support maybe I need his affirmation maybe I need his attention like whatever it is I I encounter that and so literally it was nine months of the year that I told myself like the business is
(28:44) failing now I have a fetish around that like I like to feel it’s going wrong and negativistic focused I’ve done a lot of work on that in the in the past year and a half I would say but I have been right because that’s a that’s a havingness capacity that’s like a practice of Celebration that is it’s safe to be big in the ways that we were just saying so before I had done that work I was very um and I I didn’t mention but your your partner we work together um before you’re little came into the picture and Suzanne you know has she witnessed uh so
(29:18) much probably of this pattern in me where I would always focus on it’s not good enough it’s not enough the launch didn’t go the way why why aren’t 12 million people you know claiming their health why is it only 2,000 whatever and so I was in this um classic fetishized place where I was complaining about how things were going for nine months and convinced that I was literally going to have to like shut down the operation and uh yeah and then I had an audit done and um it yeah had I had already seven figure year so it’s extraordinary the
(29:51) stories that we can tell ourselves and then experience a life predicated by those stories right right to me that’s just amazing and worth acknowledging right just like how you could spend such a good Chun of time and energy right in these stories in these programs that any kind of manifestation Circle would tell you you know that’s keeping you broke right and yet there is still this thread of mystery R of Grace that is providing right and it’s like you don’t have to be perfect um you know I think that there’s
(30:24) this Obsession around getting through all your shadows so quickly and right away because the relationship can’t survive your relationship with money can’t survive and be abundant until or unless and that level of pressure and urgency to get through it all right away because that thing won’t survive is such an unnecessary pressure right and whose voice is that like where is that story generated from um so yeah I just love that example right of how like you can have an incredibly abundant year while still spinning in all of these non ideal
(30:58) stories right and like you’re not manifesting disaster even if you’re kind of ruminating around those ideas and just this idea of this like inbuilt Grace and inbuilt support or a greater part of you that is still attracting and calling in um beautiful support right is incredible and I think worth noting for those who feel such immense pressure of perfection in the energy they’re experiencing right and the stories they’re telling themselves totally yeah so when we think of money we obviously think of transactions right so we’re talking
(31:32) about exchanges and we’re talking about agreements and sometimes contracts and there is this idea we’ve already touched on of um giving what is unwillingly given uh and how you know these kinds of programs and and traumas really can be uh triggered and activated in the space of money um and you wrote about something I had also been exploring which is uh that this belief that many of us have that receiving money means trading or exchanging like your life um and I had so this master class that I I mentioned um somebody on the
(32:17) socials wrote this thing I’m gonna read uh to me to little old me so mean no somebody wrote okay uh this person I think it’s a woman um I cringed at that so I’m promoting this master class right in this wichet I cringed at that exact part twoo basically she’s admitting that she unethically makes an obscene amount of money for almost no work at all and sits there priding herself on it yet there are people who work 60 plus hours a week and can’t even afford groceries how people can sit with themselves and spiritually manipulated into self-love
(32:52) and self-care is so backwards we’ve become so beyond disconnected from humanity and what it really means to care for for each other I certainly agree with that last statement um and I thought wow that is that is fascinating to me because I have that belief too and just that day I had uh shared a little story that I was like at a you know a um pilates class i’ like started Shing Pates I’m like that now um I was at a class and this woman came up to me and she’s like I love your hair your curls are so pretty and I look at her
(33:31) and I say thank you it’s so much work okay so so I received her compliment and even though I know better I ain’t doing better yet um so even though I know better that Thank you period is a complete sentence I I felt compelled to translate to her that I’m working for what it is that she likes that I have right and so I had just had that experience and you know here I am reflected the same sentiment that if you’re working for it really hard and you’re exchanging as you put it your life force right you’re exchanging your
(34:11) life then it’s okay if you have it but if you woke up that way you know with all of it you know just trickling into your life then you actually deserve um you know to to be marginalized and and maybe even punished right yeah I’d love for you to speak to your experience and perspective because I think this is big for us you know this Rel topic toil and trouble and prosperity yeah most people’s set point that I’ve encountered right is this it’s more than an idea or more than a belief it’s a lived experience right it’s how they’ve been
(34:45) encoded to receive money is they feel most comfortable right giving more life and energy than what they receive back right that is the only type of transaction where they feel fully safeen right if they have not given more life force than what they’ve received so much stuff gets triggered right the Judgment of others for one right you look at that you know comment that you just read out loud right that is a legitimate fear of backlash right of receiving for not giving more life force in exchange so one exercise right it’s in the book I
(35:24) call it um I think money reality Distortion field right is the way we receive money has been encoded right a certain way of acceptability right it’s acceptable to receive at a certain speed it’s acceptable to receive under a certain set of conditions and that’s a really important one I want people to kind of hone in on is what are the conditions you have determined to be the ones that money flows to you right and how true are they and where are they rooted in for many just even tracing back to your primary wound of the first
(35:56) time you were the first time you received significant money right like that first job you had um usually will set the set point most people’s first job they gave a lot more life to receive very little right many people I’ve worked with have experience legitimate harassment right of like I receive money when I tolerate these gazes and these stairs right in these comments right and there’s this element of even self- betrayal in receiving right where that is what is encoded in quote unquote the circumstances in which you can receive
(36:33) money so to me that’s a huge topic is re-encoding what conditions are acceptable and even favorable and even enjoyable to receive money move from acceptable to enjoyable what would be the most enjoyable conditions to receive money in and it’s not in this book but um it’s in book number two so one of my um annoying frustrating things as a writer as I tend to download things in three-part serieses and then I have to write for the whole year um but the second book is called love money and one of the topics that kind of flowed in was
(37:10) this idea of four prosperous zones don’t hate me I downloaded the term it’s a little weird but also a little cool what for prosperous own most people are only used to receiving through quote unquote value exchange giving for something that’s your product your service your business your wage right and it could go all into the Paradigm of quote unquote wage and how unnatural that is right and how that is kind of an imprint that’s been only recently kind of like um really cemented in our consciousness of how we receive
(37:45) but um value exchange is only one of those zones we could get comfortable receiving right a gift a gift whether it’s inheritance or some human some stranger right just like blessing you with a gift right how do you feel how do most people feel in receiving a gift at what point does the body contract at what point is the gift too big and too much and too unsafe right how can we create openness and appreciation and even that erotic flow of energy right with that gift that comes in so there’s um gift whether that’s inheritance whether that’s a
(38:20) stranger whether that’s whatever right there’s the gift element um there’s value exchange um there’s Roi right you’re in Investments like growing in um growing in value right that is quote unquote money for nothing that is money being contained and stewarded and growing on its own accord and how how do you feel in receiving that right do you feel do you feel good right in watching an investment 2x 5x 10x over you know 20 years or does that feel like H like I don’t deserve that because most of the world doesn’t even have that
(38:55) opportunity um so looking at these different ways of receiving wealth um luck and Fortune is the fourth one and this is such a big one right it’s like how many people I’d say most people almost don’t want to be fortunate right and it’s so odd to say out loud it’s like you want to be fortunate there’s a desire for it and you don’t want people to know you got lucky right you hear you’ve heard terms of that lucky right you know you have a horseshoe up your ass all these words we encode in our language it’s like no I don’t want to be that
(39:30) right like I just don’t want all those like self I don’t want all those like cursing glances right people subtly cursing my good fortune right because I know the other shoe will drop and it’ll be so harsh and so rude and such a rough um experience after that fortune right so it’s like looking at these four different areas and cleaning that up right what is your level of receptivity and openness and enjoyment I really like the word enjoyment in this case because accepting is kind of like it’s neutral it’s like yeah I could do it right and
(40:04) it’s like I don’t think money wants to arrive right to be yeah I’m okay with you here right I don’t I don’t I don’t think Fortune is like seeking someone who’s like you know I I can warm myself up to the idea right it’s like if these energy flows desire to be received ecstatically right and be liberated through how one receives them like how how much can we Avail ourselves to that enjoyment and there’s so much re-encoding to be done and once again it’s not this process where every fragment needs to be cleaned every bit
(40:39) of charge needs to be discharged before you can be in such a healthy and harmonious state of receiving right the rewards are ongoing and cumulative as you go so yeah a lot of practices to be had there yeah and if we keep the relational intention alive you know in this discussion you can you know you can translate all of what we’re talking about to any any relationship any relationship Dynamic um and I think one of the ways that this comes up for a lot of us so so we’ve talked a bit about being a a receptive welcoming honoring
(41:18) uh Steward right for the money that wants to come home to you and uh what goes on when you said money like how how does that feel and I want to read another quote um because I think this is also an important topic and I and I actually talked to my daughters about this because interestingly you know and I I think this is probably not uncommon but they are like very frugal okay so um they both they both have sort of like entrepreneurial uh designs in fact my eldest has already had a natural makeup company called experience Beauty and you
(41:59) know was working for $25 an hour when she was like 12 this was my My unschooling Moment uh before I lost them to uh you know boyfriends and socialization in the school system but regardless they have um almost like that it’s almost like they’re worried about my spending my money in ways that I am not consciously anyway right and so I say to them listen like I spend money with joy right it’s enjoyment principle right like I enjoy spending it if I choose to spend it it’s going to always be like a yes and I recommend you
(42:38) know this practice and so you know so you write here you said ultimately weather handed to an oil company to fill up an SUV a tobacco company to feed an addiction or to a government agency to pay for taxes most money exchanges fall under the victim’s whimper of I had no choice a helpless stance void of conscious stewardship that leaves the departing bundle of money feeling uncared for and untrusting in your leadership so you know when it comes to the actual um experience of paying it sounds like you’ve come to a similar
(43:14) place where the the handoff right um can be one of willful choice I mean that’s all right and then we can dress it up with like pleasure and enjoyment and other things but to to resolve the victim posture that’s all that’s that’s required it’s like I am choosing I mean especially when it comes to taxes I am choosing to participate in this in this way like right is it ever true that you have no choice you know but but to hand it over so yeah I wonder if you can speak to sort of like how you feel it would serve us to consider a reframe
(43:54) around actually spending yeah well it’s it’s my view that the victim posture pretty much never yields any positive benefit like I just can’t think of any circumstance where a chronic victim posture right like this doesn’t mean denying right uneasiness right and bypassing through feelings of like gosh this doesn’t feel good right but being in chronic victimhood especially around where you circulate money it’s like you know if you’re sad and depressed and vicy when recirculating money like money doesn’t want to pass through that right
(44:28) that is not um you are not being a channel that money wants to be received and rechan through it’s really a simple as that so I think like one really elegant and simple practice that I personally enjoy and you don’t need to exaggerate it you don’t need to give yourself Stockholm syndrome with the oil company right or the government like you don’t yes Mr like you don’t you don’t have to go there right um and right if you could simply thank the money flowing through you right for what it has provided acknowledge that a choice has
(45:02) been made and simply bless it right so it’s a really simple blessing and you know there’s been so much research done around water blessing to me it’s a very similar concept right to me money is of the water element it’s impressionable like water you can go into the studies of I think it was Dr Oto right like water you know going through I mean simple statements right I love you I hate you certain mantras certain blessings um and just blessing that departing flow right just blessing it right like you don’t need to condone the
(45:37) company that it’s being sent to you don’t need to agree with all their actions just bless the money because it has nothing to do with that company right like it has nothing to do with it and it announces to that flow right that it is safe to flow into your presence right that you are going to love it you’re going to honor it you are going to consciously choose where to re circulate it and this is where things may get more in the esoteric realm is a belief I choose to have because it feels good to have it um but I think there
(46:08) were also water studies done around like like one drop of holy water right and we could go into all sorts of Dynamics around holy water and the church let’s not go there but one drop of holy water like Dro in 70 gallons of quote unquote normal water will change the signature the vibration and the quality of 70 gallons from one drop right so it’s my belief and I choose to embrace this that even kind of rechanneling like a bundle of call it $10,000 of blessed money right and dropping that into the larger account of
(46:47) a company right or a being or an entity that you would judge to be less than conscious can have an overall effect on the totality of those accounts right and have kind of emanation of a higher vibrancy and a higher frequency and that is a form of repair work I get excited about it’s a form of activism I feel like I can get behind because it’s that’s audacious right it’s like channeling you know $20,000 to the government and taxes right and instead of feeling victimized somehow taking a stance of feeling empowered and being
(47:21) responsible for the repair work of money and maybe even these accounts Within These government agencies get greater exposure of light frequencies to me that’s something I enjoy participating in so since you brought up the topic of activism I’d love to get your two cents on something that I have observed which is that there is a fragmentation between the concept of service philanthropy bettering the world doing good for others and prosperity which is the experience of wealth garnered for your uh expression right
(48:08) let’s say and this fragmentation is such that in the truther world in the holistic wellness world uh in the activism World there is a strong effort to never be perceived as doing it for the so-called money and to make sure that you’re doing it for the right reasons and if prosperity and service seem to overlap there is often an attraction of condemnation criticism accusations around profiteering and this split wants to be harmonized right yeah I mean I think or what I perceive is that Financial victim but still runs rampant right if I give
(49:00) money to you you are taking it from me and bringing me one step closer to destitution and poverty and death right like that’s really the core of financial victimhood is this person is bringing me closer to death right and that is a story right that perhaps even has some basis in truthful generational experience right when you think of War when you think of famine when you think of being taxed to death right and even the language in we use use um there’s some validity to that there’s certainly some current running generationally that
(49:34) has given rise to the accuracy of that story and that story has run its course right like we have suffered enough for these stories right we don’t need to honor those who have fallen to these stories by perpetuating them and I think that this is one of the like keys to our inner healing is that we don’t dishonor our ancestors right and those who have suffered by changing the story right we don’t invalidate their suffering by choosing not to suffer right there’s no solidarity in continuing to perpetuate that and in my view when so much
(50:14) suffering energy right has been leaked right has been embedded right in these stories these stories become living architectures right that seek to run its course right stories don’t like being interrupted right i’ I’ve noticed this in myself even when I’ve like noticed like this story doesn’t really serve a story has momentum right it wants to pull you through it even if you’re trying to disrupt it and say I’m not sure I want to live this story right and I’ll give you a personal example um maybe about a year ago I
(50:49) confronted like the story of like the blood dry father and provider right the one who suffers to provide for their family and no one appreciates him and you’re blood dry and you’re the straw dog right you’re kind of Left for Dead after that and um I did a lot of work with this in U my men’s group in workshops right that I ran like this wounding pattern right of the bled dry father and provider there’s a meme that went viral on Father’s day it had like a million shares and it was like Father the one who like gives his shoes to his
(51:23) son and there’s just father who’s like left for dead right and um to remaining victim fragments within that’s a really seductive story to hook into right and once you’re hooked into a story like it’s kind of like watching a movie you don’t want to turn it off halfway through you’re like I want to run this through to its conclusion even if I don’t want the outcome of the story the story kind of pulls you through it so story disruption um is such a valuable practice and there are many ways to do it you know shamanic right or
(52:01) energetically um I just tune in to kind of visualizing the story right and the timeline of it and literally creating disruptive vibrations within it like vibrated loose so that it loses that coherence um that’s a whole other subject um but coming across the power of story and its um desire to be run towards its conclusion has been really revealing um and I can’t remember the initial question now no that’s perfect and obviously you know to to anyone listening this is you know my bread and butter and passion is is the nature of
(52:40) this this story shedding and um I think collectively we have decided that change to change right so change your story change your identity change your value system uh even change your priorities means that you were wrong before and if we are in our victim Consciousness forever endeavoring to be right uh then to be wrong is too costly and so once you can even make that shift where you say you know I you resolve the the chronological snobbery right like uh you you resolve this sense of superiority that you might have over your past self
(53:21) right so if I look back at my Med prescribing self eating McDonald’s if I feel fundamentally Superior to her that’s seems natural right because isn’t this some sort of spiritual meritocracy right AR and I doing better and better and better um perhaps through one lens but it’s a it’s a dangerous game to play because that means that the next time I want to change which if you’re me that’s like oh I don’t know next Wednesday then it still has that huge price tag of that means I was wrong before and maybe even bad before so now
(53:57) I have to keep trying to be so right about who I am you know in the present to negate the the bad and wrong versions of me before and it’s um it’s it’s a a perilous like path to shed these stories versus remaining you know in the uh the comfy cozy womb of like our you know sort of minimally met needs because these stories you would agree I’m sure like they meet our needs right it serves us to stay stuck yeah they perpetuate and animate certain characters right that we still on some level desire to play out right that we
(54:39) desire to see animated and try on and be like where does this go right and there’s a sense of being enamored right around so many stories and outcomes that don’t serve because we’ve romanticized so many negative conclusions and outcomes um call that through programming through conditioning through observing through observing parents run that script and they’re alluring right it’s like this um assumption right that we would never desire a negative or punishing circumstance or outcome um in my experience is untrue there are
(55:16) certainly parts that feel like they want to have that experience that they need to have that experience and they remain loyal to that experience um loyal right that’s a whole other topic right the shadow side of loyalty and you know how we can feel like we’re betraying these old past versions by changing course um so there’s a lot of really good stuff there for me like ultimately um and this is where I love solo Shadow work right this book was really designed for someone to like go at it alone right because I think like
(55:51) to generate that sense of fierce Grace and total unyielding compassion yourself as you go through it is a lot easier than doing so relationally right and to me this is like a sadness I’ve just sought to repair so much in my work in doing coup’s work right is where like it is still in so many couples and relationships unsafe to acknowledge right I was enacting out this pattern right to take ownership of that doesn’t really come at a you know this over outpouring of gratitude for the acknowledgement it kind of ignites the
(56:30) hurt that was suppressed right and you kind of get crucified for your Shadow and it’s kind of this unending vicious cycle where like where do you actually create greater connection through that um so yeah in my view Shadow work requires that field of warmth right this capacity to see all and feel all and witness all in a space that hasn’t been hijacked by your own suppressor or inner critic right and the inner critic is really good at masquerading as like the one doing Shadow work right where it’s like I hate all this we’re gonna get to
(57:08) the other side of it and be a better person right and it’s just like utilitarian totally so yeah I I love the idea of creating safe truly safe spaces to do like the Deep gnarly Shadow work right and really giving it that liberating space um because otherwise like that really dark damaging stuff that you just really wouldn’t admit which is the shadow right the stuff that like isn’t the safe all I’ll give this right this sounds good enough to offer this as my shadow and you really get like deep down into it there are stuff
(57:43) that you just don’t even want to say out loud because like I cannot in a million years associate this or tie this to my character um and yeah I think creating those spaces right first internal right in your own internal Shadow work is so vital totally reminds me of you know work I do on acknowledging like shameful wants that I have around money like of mine is that I I would I you can’t want what you want right and so I want um to have like full staff right like driver Chef you know like Immaculate home like
(58:21) literally specialized men doing everything there is to do around the the property so and uh there were many years that I I was aware that I had that desire and would never have admitted that like out loud what would that mean about me what kind you know what kind of a bougie wants that and to come into like even with yourself in your journal in the privacy of your home you know some sort of awareness without even an efforting towards um you know put some sort of bow on it just like oh that’s there interesting like
(59:00) what other shameful desires are there related to you know money wealth or you know even just having um having and holding uh which is something you know you agree we grow into you know if we if we actually could hold all the things that we want we would have them perhaps um so I have a quick question before we go and you didn’t write about this per se in the book but I know that you have worked in the space of polarity and men’s work and you were referencing coup’s work I wonder you know what you think about the role that money is
(59:35) playing in the the modern you know marriage uh and manwoman Dynamics as far as providership and the way that so many women have connected to entrepreneurship or self-expression uh in this you know um in in the space of really recognizing the Fulfillment of you know I I’ve referenced this Japanese concept maybe you’ve heard of icky guy yes did you did you put that in the book I feel like now maybe you even wrote that anyway whatever you’ve heard of it so it’s just this idea that like our gifts and talents what it is that we
(1:00:16) love to do service to the collective and prosperity all can uh harmonize and synergize to confer a sense of fillment when we wake up in the morning we actually want to be alive right and the prosperity piece it’s just a part of the Fulfillment equation it just is right so as women I think many of us are recognizing that when we are self-expressing when we are in our creative moments it can feel amazing to create a business out of that right so in the modern um you know marital home I know there are all sorts of Dynamics and
(1:00:50) some sort of counterrevolution against the egalitarian you know approach to you know 50-50 partnership and I know you know data’s work and what he has to say about um what that does to polarity to invest in that kind of you know buddy type we’re both bringing both to the table energy but I wonder you know just sort of broadly what you’re seeing as being some of the challenges and some of the ways that we can frame relationship to money because you’ve You’ I’ve never really thought about this this Blood dry father this concept of the the Martyr
(1:01:25) right the Martyr father um I think of that so much in in the the maternal role so that’s that victim Consciousness is of course alive and well in both archetypes but um yeah so so so how do you think we might be advised to like navigate this dynamically yeah I’m GNA like bring it to a really simple principle right that I’ve been trying on myself right in my own partnership um and it’s it’s that of devotion right you know like truly hearing and feeling like how my partner wishes to experience her life in her body right and how devotional can I get
(1:02:04) in being of service to that how much can I truly like wholeheartedly desire that for her right and it’s such a simple question and once you ask it so much sh comes up right around withholding and around punishment in particular right and these are the themes that to me um most distort healthy polarity right like when you truly don’t want your partner right to live this dream life for herself or for himself you’re going to find ways to sabotage it you’re going to find ways to um create these counter intentions
(1:02:42) between what you say you’re doing and what you actually want to receive right so to me like I mean the concept of 50/50 you know I’ll flat out say it is absurd right it’s a superimposed construct like why are we even going there it’s just like I want to be in a place thank you feminism okay I I want to be in a place of devotional gifting right as as a man as a provider as someone who is even wearing that energetic clothing right even if I don’t fully invest myself in the archetype as a provider factually right to deny that
(1:03:20) I’m wearing that or playing within that would be false and w I’m in it I want to absolutely take the biggest stand for how my partner wants to live her life right and I want to be an Allin yes to witnessing her in that and celebrating her in that and I want to feel right in return right there’s there is a reciprocal element I want to feel an element of holy reverence around that look at what you’re capable of capacity right I love to be seen in that so having devotional elements of like being devoted to her feminine expression
(1:04:03) while receiving her devotion for my capacity my desire to gift to me creates this like flow of nourishment that just keeps cycling back and forth and nothing and no one feels depleted nothing feels impossible that to me creates this field of constant yeah cycling through the system um so devotion love and devotion right and however that gets played with and expressed um and it can happen in a myriad of forms right in ways um but ultimately my selfcheck is how much do I really want her to experience this cleanly right so like one simple
(1:04:43) statement is like you know if we were kind of like using your experience here right is like if I said out loud I want Kelly to receive all the gifts of 20 men serving her different needs in all these different ways right like sounds way kinkier than it was intended okay how much of a yeah am I in declaring that desire for you to have that right and where am I unclean or insincere and inauthentic right to me inauthenticity creates this like flatlining hum right in the relational field and ultimately yeah devotional quality right how much
(1:05:20) do you truly want that experience for your partner yeah really smokes out a lot of the competitive dynamics that otherwise are at play when uh polarity roles are incompletely adhered to if you will so that’s super helpful I love that um so I want to close on um some codes that I thought were really cool and to sort of template I guess what your perspective is on the potential that we have to heal this relationship uh to integrate um this energy to welcome it into our sphere even with its complexities right and to also disassociated from the
(1:06:05) objects of projection that uh we have otherwise like gotten snor into the the field of money right so okay so you call them foundational conscious money codes and there’s three here that I really like so number one is I am in loving awe and celebration that my relationship with money is now fully healed loving and prosperous two I am in ecstatic euphoria that my relation I love that that my relationship with money is now fully healed loving and prosperous three I am in boundless appreciation and infinite gratitude that my relationship
(1:06:40) with money is now fully healed loving and prosperous so if that’s not a foundation for where you can go if you choose to abdicate you know this your participate your participation in this system entirely and you want to you know go off grid and barter and you know live um your happy life it’s still seems like coming to this neutrality I call it you know neutralizing rejection of the erotic caress of the enemy right like we get into these like erotic Dynamics with that which we reject right so so if you can come to this neutrality then it
(1:07:20) you’re you’re liberated to make choices like actual choices instead of living your life in this victim field of I have to do this I have to do that I can can’t do this um you know and I am otherwise like you know really restricted into this zone of existence that maybe even I was born into and so that’s where I I belong as we were saying so um I wonder if you could just leave us on um on this note you know around walk you think it matters you know for us to do this work do you think that this is an imperative we all um are facing
(1:08:04) should we all do this work um if we’re sort of making ends meet is it still work we have to do or is it just if we have our designs on you know uh levels of wealth that don’t seem easily attainable that we should do this work or is it if we’re in a kink of struggle um we should do this work you know I just sort of feel like from my perspective everyone could could benefit because it’s relational work and your relationship with every single thing and system around you so um best to get right with it think yeah yeah I mean you
(1:08:41) nailed it right like if we’re already in relationship with it if we’re already in the work right just participating consciously and effectively within it makes sense right like to me to not engage consciously in the work has a form of denial of being in that relationship and I’ve never seen a relationship become more whole and fruitful and you know love driven and filled with Heros and all these amazing qualities while denying that you’re in a relationship it just doesn’t happen right so I feel like bringing that level
(1:09:13) of awareness and doing that work that you’re already doing um and cleaning up that field regardless of kind of where you are on the quote unquote like wealth scale right to me this work is just as valid if you are quote unquote stuck in struggle right or attained a massive windfall right and we could go into the whole um set of Dynamics around you know lottery winners and Superstar athletes who attain massive wealth and self-destruct around it um that’s perhaps a future conversation um but yeah this work is for anyone who is
(1:09:48) relating with money which um in most cases is everyone right um so yeah that’s really my final note on that amen amazing so where can folks find you work with you learn more from your downloads so the running joke is like as I create more pen names for my different books right I just have like a scattering right of stuff online so my personal personal page Facebook Ryan Schwarz you’ll find me there um money shaman on Instagram setup Hendrick’s black on Instagram for the Men’s Work relational stuff um one day maybe I’ll consolidate all
(1:10:29) these names and you a good Link in BIO right right now is just a running joke the amount of domain names I got to renew every year is just ridiculous just trying on different different identities it’s good for I received this name while I was like running around the gym I’m like really I gotta call myself that like are you sure like I did like three say three checks I’m like that’s what I’m gonna call myself so there we go trusting those impulses I love that it’s an important practice well thank you for this I I feel very connected to you know
(1:11:04) the journey that you are on and I think it is in the Zeitgeist we are in the midst of a grand opportunity to Rebrand and reframe and recognize how we were playing into you know victim Consciousness in ways that we were potentially not aware and I uh I just so love um yeah sharing this language and perspective with you so thank you Ryan yeah likewise it’s so enriching thank you for creating the space to have this uh conversation and hope it’s been helpful to those tuning in absolutely [Music] there are [Music]
