(00:00) I experienced a death. A death where the ego just dropped. I was a victim and I had every valid proof of it. You’re describing a kind of annihilation, which is certainly a death. It’s also an orgasm, right? Eventually, it’s orgasm. I see the ego as a terrified child just fighting for its life to exist.
(00:27) But ego is a state of mind, not body. So, how can the ego live? It identifies as this. Byron Katy, a renowned spiritual teacher and best-selling author, the creator of the work, a transformative self-incquiry method inspiring millions to find peace. An influential American speaker and author, Byron Katie, a global voice for self-discovery and healing.
(00:48) The ego’s not going to take it lightly. That’s why it takes an open mind because the ego eventually begins to trust you’re not trying to kill it. That’s the absence of war, you know, not trying to kill the ego, but to Hi, and welcome back to Reclamation Radio. I’m Dr. Kelly Broen, and today I am fangirling to host Byron Katie on the show.
(01:15) I am continually surprised when I reference her teachings to others out in the world and I meet people who have never heard of her. So, if you are one of those folks, you are in for an honorable treat here to be exposed to her wisdom. To me, she is one of the most important embodied guides of our time.
(01:39) And her method of inquiry specifically is such an extraordinarily elegant path out of the certainty and superiority that underpin victim consciousness. So there’s huge overlap in my mission and what it is that she has been very diligently for many decades putting out into the world. So stay tuned to learn about the quality that I see in Byron Katy that leads me to believe that she has something very powerful to teach us.
(02:15) Also, the most essential questions that you can ask in the quiet of your own innercape when you are upset about literally anything and what to do if your man leaves a mess in the kitchen. So, she’ll give you her perspective on how to transform that within minutes. Enjoy. So, thank you for being here. I was just saying off camera that I am a bit starruck, which is very rare for me.
(02:46) And I’m just so honored to be in conversation with you, Byron. Thank you so much for taking the time. Oh, my pleasure. My pleasure. So I wanted to set a bit of of context because we were speaking a bit about you know where I am coming from in this path towards um self-discovery and self-nowledge and self-empowerment however you want to frame it and I’ve been looking at for the past I don’t know 15 years I guess the you know the role of um health in our experience the role of relationships in our experience and how what I refer
(03:23) to as victim consciousness seems to underpin a lot of what we call human suffering, right? And that there are a lot of ways in which victim psychology and victim consciousness actually meets needs uh allows for connections and a sense of power, right? to be accessed through blaming, through fingerpointing, through defending and proving that there is um a lot of juiciness in that way of being and I know from obviously personal experience I also have observed that relaxing that uh impulse the impulse to defend and and prove and blame whether
(04:05) it’s your genes and you know biochemistry or whether it’s your husband is the path to what we call healing right that somehow transition itioning out of that is is the way. And from my perspective, you have the most effective methodology, the most logical, the most lucid all approaches to this transition from one way of being, if you want to call it victim consciousness or disempowerment or a habit of struggle into another.
(04:38) And it’s just a different experience, right? It’s not even necessarily better. It’s just different. And I know that you have moved through your own transformation that gifted you, maybe you would call it that, um, this, you know, this methodology. And so I wanted to really start there. I’m sure most people listening are aware of your story and know of your contributions, but I wonder specifically about how you look at your trajectory and the very specific struggles.
(05:12) I don’t know if you would refer to them as having been, you know, struggles with so-called mental illness or I don’t use that phrase typically, but if you look back and you and you think about how essential it was that you moved through the challenges that you moved through in order to get to the place that you have arrived at, which is um probably best characterized as equinimity, right? Do you see that there was some necessity for you to move through what you move through or do you think that people can come into the space that you’re occupying and that you
(05:45) support others in accessing without a specific you know sort of initiation? I I was always curious like how much of a role you think that played in your in your journey as as a human. I hit a bottom with self-loathing and and I saw myself as a victim and it literally took me to a kind of death.
(06:17) It’s like I didn’t survive that painful victim experience identity and it was nothing I was doing on purpose. I was a victim and I had every valid proof of it and it just turned out not to be so valid because I had no insight into self. So I discovered, you know, I’ll just cut I’ll just cut to the chase. You know, I experienced a death a a death where the ego just dropped.
(06:53) It could not go any further with with there’s something wrong with me and it’s your fault. And it was like the death of that kind of identity. And it was so profound. I saw the cause of my suffering. I saw literally the cause of my suffering. And the cause of my suffering is when I believed my thoughts, I was a victim.
(07:28) When I questioned my thoughts, it tapped me automatically into a kind of wisdom that I had no inkling of prior to that. It was so clear. I saw the cause of my suffering. So I um went through the world for a while and trying to share that with people but there’s it’s not something I could share because what I had to share there was nothing new in it.
(08:00) People would say well you’re not a victim. Yeah but you don’t understand or you’re you’re there’s something wrong with me. Oh there’s nothing wrong with you. Yes there is. You know all this it was gone. The defense was gone. And the cause of my suffering was when I believed my thoughts, I suffered. When I questioned my thoughts, I didn’t suffer if my mind was open to self inquiry.
(08:33) And the first question that I experienced was the answer to is it true? But is what true? Literally to stop my head, I had to move that victimhood, those victim thoughts from my head to paper. So there they were stopped. My head stopped on paper. Even though it was running in my head, they were stopped so I could question them.
(09:02) And so that’s what I pass on to the world, you know, is um it, as it turns out, I’ve heard all my life, it’s the truth that sets me sets you free. But what truth? What truth? They didn’t tell me what truth? What truth? You know, the way to be happy is to be good. But you know, I I’m I am good. It’s their fault. I’m the way I am.
(09:22) All of this traveling through my head, you know, nothing unusual here. So I’ve been moved the thoughts, the thoughts about the world, my children, my husband, my mother, my father. Just move those thoughts from my head to paper and there they were stopped and then I could question them like my mother doesn’t love me. I just I I believed it.
(09:47) She doesn’t really love me. She said so. And but I didn’t get that to my soul. And so it’s is it true? My mother doesn’t love me. Is it true? Now I have to look to myself and the answer is yes. You know it’s true. The ego comes out with for and I just kind of thank good for sharing and settle down cuz that’s been the answer all my life. Let me get down in it.
(10:18) Am I missing something? So this helped me to open my mind and open my mind and even though the answer could still be yes it was clear to me or if it was a no it was clear to me. So I can sit in is it true for a long time it is an exercise in stillness where the ego has opportunity to go yeah yeah know and just to patiently I see the ego as a terrified child just fighting for its life to exist but ego is a state of mind not body.
(11:04) So how can the ego live? It identifies as this body. So it is all about survival of the body. That’s like the host you know as ego. Who am I if something happens to the body and it you know fearful fearful too old too fat too thin too stupid too small just you know all of that running you know the the host of I I am.
(11:32) So my mother doesn’t love me and I would sit and is it true and listen takes patience. It takes a mind that really wants to know really really wants to get down and get it cuz this is not something someone can teach me. It’s experiential and it takes an open mind and a lot of depth. A lot of pain will get me there.
(11:56) I’m describing you know enough pain will get you there or just you know the grace of an open mind. So then the next question is how do I react? What happens when I believe the thought my mother doesn’t love me? Oh my god. To sit in that to sit in that and it takes me back to my earliest and the comparison of how she treated my brother and how she treated me.
(12:24) all of the proof how I react when I believe the thought, you know, I the way I would distance myself from her, the way I tortured my brother, you know, all all of this. It walked me through this lifetime. Just just how I treated others. It killed me, Kelly. It killed me. meaning that identity that that that identity that victim identity I saw I treated others and I and and it killed me the things I said the things I did as a victim and then that last question who would I be without the thought my mother doesn’t love me who would I be without thought
(13:16) thought and how do you answer that number one I had no idea who am I without it there goes like what percentage of my identity I mean it it it’s it’s like who am I you know that old question who am I who am I without that victimhood just that one little thing you know just that not so little how much of my identity was tied up in that and it doesn’t matter If your mother dies or is dead, they live in us.
(13:54) They they they live in us. So there that that was my excuse and it was valid all my life. Pure ego, not right or wrong. It’s just condensing. So who am I without it? So then you begin to live without it. And each step of the way show is it it the answer to that old question who am I shows up stunning stunning it’s a don’t know world who am I without that loathing without that hatred without that victimhood without that that misery without that personality I mean there’s power in that personality. We don’t give it up easily.
(14:45) It’s a death. And then the other people, you know, I would put them on paper, too. You know, all all these perpetrators in my life, they just didn’t understand me. And and I referred to it as the work because it is. And it takes courage. Oh my does it take courage cuz the ego is going to differ all the way.
(15:14) It’s yeah it’s a it’s it’s a power until we understand it’s nothing more nothing less than a state of mind and there is no moment that the ego is not in charge. It’s just do we understand it? And until we do, we’re at war with the self. We’re at war with a state of mind. It’s not a thing. It is not physical. It’s identification and it’s it’s uh its entire focus is this body this host this eye that it associates as.
(16:08) So that’s the work you know and the short version for me is like judge your neighbor write it down ask four questions and turn it around or not you know it is a way it is a way and it takes it takes courage I’ve been in your uh in-person containers and you know as somebody who also has collected community around me dedicated to the transformation of victim consciousness I know that the courage that it takes to do this with other people doing it is diminished, right? That it becomes more available to access the relief and maybe even the joy of this
(16:47) annihilation because you’re describing a kind of annihilation which you know is certainly a death. It’s also an orgasm, right? Like it’s it’s that Yeah, it’s it’s it eventually it’s orgasm. It’s like you know, who am I without it? is looking good. Hey, even better, right? And I think of this this method, you know, as a very uh as somebody who’s probably primary defense, you know, is intellectualization of my uh emotional discomfort.
(17:20) I think of this as a psychoso surgery, right? That what what you’re doing with these simple points of inquiry is is excising, right, a dimension of identity. Yeah. It it really is like an an exorcism of of anything less than beautiful. I love that. I love that. I wanted to I wanted to take this conversation into I’m not sure how often you talk about activism and the application of this work to the activism space.
(17:49) I, you know, spent a decade as a very righteous, indignant activist and I know that activists care about the truth, right? This theoretically anyway, what uh invites us to the space is that we know the truth and we would like to perhaps at best share the truth with others and at worst impose our truth on others. And I know that there are two elements of activism as I have explored the shadow of it and really, you know, laid down uh my my sword in many ways that seem to serve as kind of a poison.
(18:29) And one of them is certainty, right? And the other is uh superiority. And I know that when I look at my activism trajectory, I can see both of those running like, you know, rivers of of poison through my entire life. They’re the very thing you’re fighting against that you’re opposed to. Yes. Yes.
(18:54) And I believe that your methodology I always want to call it the work that the work that your work of the work is is essential for anybody who imagines that they know how the world should look right so it’s one thing you know to work on this with your neighbor and I would actually argue I think you would agree that that’s higher level work right it’s higher spiritual work is to just actually apply it to the person in front of you you call it your neighbor but many of us start with how we imagine we have cracked the code of the way society should be the way the
(19:26) world should be and the posture that we we get into around um it’s really like a rejection right of of reality so I wonder if I could take an example from a very common question that I get which is not related to sort of world activism but more the awakening to a certain kind of truth about health because that’s an arena arena that I I mostly find myself in uh is is this reclamation of authority, self- authority in the arena of health.
(20:03) So what happens is a lot of the folks that I talk to and I certainly can relate, they learn about the power of natural medicine, right? And they learn about the power of lifestyle and they learn about the choices that we have. They learned about perhaps some of the misinformation we are provided by, you know, pharmaceutical advertising and maybe even the conventional medical system itself.
(20:28) And what happens when somebody in their life is potentially struggling with their health? What happens is that then they feel all of this energy come up about how certain they are about how that person should handle their health and that it’s it’s a worse it’s a lesser path to do it in the conventional way. Right? So, let’s say that I, you know, that my father is is diagnosed with cancer and I am up at night like totally distraught that I know he can do all sorts of natural things to help himself.
(21:07) I may even have the proof, right? that that these things can work and that he’s going to actually get worse and sicker if he chooses to do chemotherapy or, you know, radiation or some sort of conventional thing. And I’m I am so sure that all I can think about is strategies for how to get him to see the light, right? Get him to to understand the peril that he’s in if he makes the wrong choice, right? right? Maybe he’s already starting to make the wrong choice and I’m feeling like I’m I’m losing the opportunity to influence him. For me and for most of the folks in
(21:41) my in my world to be convinced that pursuing conventional treatment is his right. Of course, it’s his right, but it’s not the right thing to do. Right? So, we have this mentality and the certainty. It’s like an armor, you know, that we we wear that really can’t be penetrated. So, I wonder in these cases, how does it look to apply inquiry when when these bakedin ideologies that seem to be predicated on truth, right? Like, I discovered truth.
(22:18) Now, I know the truth. Before I didn’t, but now I do, and I need to share it. I need to make sure other people see it. I think that um it would be really helpful to try to to see how you would work with that. Well, you know, I would I can share my experience and let’s say you’ve described it. I would share my experience that experience as you described it, I would share that and with all the wisdom and proof I’ve got and they’ll hear me or they won’t.
(22:48) But my father’s dying of cancer. My job is to love him. And that’s the greatest power. That’s all I’ve got. Now, I can go over his head once he hits that point where he can’t argue. And let’s say I believe it’s not too late yet to save him. And then there’s no one to stop me. Now, I can honor his wishes or I can take it over.
(23:18) Now what is right for me no one else can say. So I’ve got a dilemma and it’s a choice I have to make and I make it. I go with his wishes or I call in the doctors and say you know let’s let’s take care of this. Do what you can and if he lives he may thank me or he may curse me. You know who knows? It could be there’s a reason he didn’t want the the medical cuz he had an inkling that that you know they were going to save him.
(23:51) He didn’t necessarily want that either. So it’s a don’t know world where love is it has the ultimate say right or wrong. If I go against it I could be wrong. If I go with it I could be wrong. So it always, you know, I’m I’m this is on me. This is on me. But I can tell you if if I really believe it’s the right thing to do, I’m left without guilt.
(24:19) But I’ve got to know myself that well. And to know myself that well, I need to really know why am I not okay if my father dies. Does my life depend on him being alive to say I love you or to be here for me or to spare me from grief with his death? I mean I really need to know myself. Is this about his life or mine? And then that has that really opens the feel for making the decision that is for me to make if I have that authority. I’m left with it.
(24:53) So looking at the assumptions that are beneath even these decisions, right, that that keeping him alive is necessarily the, you know, is this for me or him? Who is this really about? You know, people would say, um, why didn’t you save your dad or why did you save your dad? And oh, it was all about me. You know, it was nothing about him.
(25:15) Yeah, he’s still suffering, but and I just couldn’t live without him. just like like it’s it’s something it’s something to know as we’re going into those things. And I found that self inquiry drops us into those places that are stunningly shocking and expose these covert exchanges, right? Where we imagine that we are serving another, helping another, saving another even.
(25:44) And what’s actually going on perhaps is that we are serving ourselves, meeting our own needs. And I would have to drop the perhaps. I want to know. I want to know. You know, I’m in. I’m I’m in. I’m not guessing. Yeah. It cost him his life. But, you know, I just couldn’t live without him.
(26:03) And as it turns out, I have to, you know, it turns out I That’s where I’m at anyway. He died. You know, it’s owning it. Owning it. Owning it. But I can’t own it if I’m all this guilt running in me. To own it is the absence of guilt. I mean owning meaning owning your own truth. Not the truth as you would want it to be or hope it would be or can prove it to be.
(26:31) But within ourselves, that’s where it hits. That’s that’s where it hits. That’s where it’s that’s where it’s um you can’t can’t fool yourself. And we do it all our lives. So, one would say we can fool ourselves, but no, we’re not fooled. We’re in pain. Pain meaning suffering, confused, hurt. So, seamos has become quite a thing lately.
(26:54) And I love myself a therapeutic food over a supplement any day. But there’s seamos and then there’s my fave, samati seamoss. So, most people don’t realize that mineral deficiency is one of the biggest drivers of imbalance, whether you’re experiencing that as fatigue or weight gain or cravings. So unless you’re growing your own food, it doesn’t contain almost by definition the spectrum of minerals that our ancestors enjoyed.
(27:20) So that’s why I am excited about samadei seaoss. It’s not your typical store-bought rope farmed seamoss. It’s 100% wild and it’s harvested by Caribbean divers from super clean waters, ensuring purity and also ecological respect. It contains over 90 bioavailable minerals and vitamins, many of which are hard to get even in a very high quality diet.
(27:45) Plus, it’s a natural collagen booster and prebiotic, making it an effortless way to support the gut, your skin, and your overall vitality. So, I take one to two tablespoons a day in warm water that I also put a little bit of sea salt in and lime or lemon. Key lime is actually my favorite. and I noticed a shift in my digestion after just a week.
(28:06) The best part is that it tastes like nothing, which makes it super easy to add to your routine. So, if you want to experience the benefits yourself, Samati is offering 10% off with the code Kelly 10. Check out the link in show notes and enjoy. I remember at the height of my activism, you know, where I’m uh living in this world where I feel I’ve collected so much knowledge and awareness around how to navigate, right? So, you know, from what products to buy to how to, you know, be in a human body to how to live in this polluted world,
(28:40) etc. And my daughter, she was like a tween at the time. And she said to me, I don’t know what I was talking about, like chemtrails or something. Anyway, and she said to me, “Mama, you’re afraid of so many things.” I mean, well, I felt like Jonah Var, right? Like I felt like I was like maybe the world or whatever I imagined was going on.
(29:01) and she could feel like her animal body could feel the fear that I hadn’t accessed necessarily because I hadn’t asked the deep enough questions around why I was doing this and move beyond the assumption that it was to serve humanity and right I found that that fear underneath and through inquiry that you’re you’re referencing I also was able to recognize that I really don’t I can’t possibly know that it’s better for somebody to live the way I live including a child right like out there cuz I was very concerned with the children of the world at various points
(29:40) in my career and I did get to the place where I could own as you’re saying that I really I can’t possibly know what is best for somebody else. It’s it’s I could make a compelling argument and I’ve tried, you know, with many scientific references, but I can’t possibly actually know. And so that certainty melting away, it’s uh it’s it’s quite vulnerable.
(30:03) It’s quite freeing to understand, you know, not to be the authority, but to be the open-minded one. And that is the gift of an open mind, right? It’s different than just bypassing, right? And it’s different than just um superficially engaging. You’re actually suggesting that you you hyperengage, right? That you go quite deep so that you can explore all of the recess of recesses of of what might be tinkering around in there, right? You’re not suggesting that you just have some polyanage, you know, relationship.
(30:39) The the extreme opposite. So as I mentioned I think the higher level mastery is in the direct relational realm right. So your husband your children your own parents and the responsibility that you suggest not that you suggest but that that I think emerges as an epiphenomenon of this work is to really see that you’re in charge of your experience.
(31:04) Right. And there is I remember something I I’ve listened to so so many of your books and recordings and I remember there’s something that you said that has stuck with me to this day and I and I reference it off often when I speak to other moms about what happens when your kids socks are on the floor. And it’s that single sentiment has influenced my experience as a mother of now teenagers immeasurably.
(31:32) Living is an example, isn’t it? And then they follow or not or not. Right. And but the punishment is gone. And the guilt for having deemed out the punishment is gone. The manipulation. Yes. And the bribes. So much energy. So, you know, I don’t have any chores in my house. And you know, for those who don’t know, what you essentially said was, you know, if your if your kids socks are on the floor and it’s bothering you that their socks are on the floor because maybe you asked them to clean up or they didn’t listen to you or whatever, pick them up because
(32:07) you are the one who wants the socks off the floor. Yeah, I’m the one with the problem. My daughter had zero problem with her socks on the floor. I was the one with the problem. So, it’s like, duh. you know, I picked them up and I was happy and and um she was happy and eventually she learned to pick up her socks or not.
(32:32) Or not. And as it happened, yeah, you expose these assumptions. Yeah. Like I I wouldn’t expect it, but amazing. And perhaps, you know, one of your more famous sentiments is that, you know, if you think that somebody needs therapy, maybe you do. It’s I’m paraphrasing. Something like that. Yeah. It could be anything.
(32:57) You know, if uh if I’m so wise to see what they need, you know, let me let me try it on. Yeah. Where am I? where are similarities in my own life that I could look to and with more productive outcome. Yes. Yes. And I’ve I I reference, you know, a related uh I guess orientation or practice. I call it wearing the villain crown, right? So like how is it that you can try on being as bad and wrong as you imagine, right, somebody else to be? And you talk about how you say and you’ve referenced this in our in our conversation that defense
(33:38) is the first act of war. And so if you’re if you’re committed to inserting a pause at least between the impulse to defend yourself against you know somebody else’s either allegations about you or uh perhaps right proving how you are different from somebody that you’re judging. Then there is something that opens up in this field of personal responsibility for your experience.
(34:05) Truly. Yeah. And and and I’d love to to just talk a little bit about like to me that’s the most fertile spiritual soil there is. Right. Like I’m I’m not sure there’s anything that is more powerful than to to take a good look at how it is that you are condemning somebody else to badness and wrongness and just see if there’s anywhere inside of yourself.
(34:29) Yeah. If and I always, you know, I understand if I believed what they believed, how could I not be the same? And then I look to myself, you know, am am I living what I’m accusing them of living? Let’s say they’re not telling the truth. And and you know, I look to myself, where is it that I’m not telling the truth? And I start, you know, with in that same focus.
(35:00) what am I accusing or h of with no proof whatsoever other than maybe hearsay, you know, and just keep looking to myself. Now, if someone says, “Byron Katie, you hurt my feelings.” Say, “I didn’t hurt your feelings. I just said that da da da da.” You know, that’s defense. But if someone says, “Byron Katie, you hurt my feelings.
(35:24) ” I immediately become curious and fascinated. I want to know. So now we’re connected as opposed to separate. And there’s no trickery going on to be connected. It is just a natural open mind that pupils in life have the privy of living out of. It’s fascinating. It’s like I didn’t know I was that, but that person holds the information that could wake me up to it because I cannot change what I’m unaware of.
(36:02) And what I’m defending is like locking myself in a closet. It is a mind that is shut down. That’s why I say defense is the first act of war. the war against the self and so much of the the world that we have a problem with in the zeitgeist of interest in boundaries. However, I hear a lot of folks saying, “Well, I’m standing up for myself.
(36:26) Like, this is how I protect myself. This is how I hold my boundaries.” And yet, there is um an insistence that somebody else change, right? That somebody else do differently. Yeah. I see boundaries as an act of selfishness. Tell me more about that. Well, you know, if someone says, for example, I’m a terrible person and I defend, you know, they’ve they’ve crossed my boundary when they call me a selfish person.
(36:57) But living out of, you know, this childlike at 82 years old, this childlike curiosity, someone says, Byron Katie, you lied. I’m going to say specifically point that out to me. You are holding something that maybe I missed and then they can call me on it. They I am awake to what I was asleep to. Now that opens one’s life up to a life of gratitude.
(37:27) If you want to meet a friend, hang out with an enemy. They hold all the cards. If you’re open to how to understand the self, it takes a very open mind. And the ego is going to, you know, ego is not going to take it lightly. That’s why it takes an open mind because the ego eventually begins to trust. You’re not trying to kill it.
(37:48) That it’s that’s the absence of war. You know, not trying to kill the ego, but to understand it. I see the ego as a terrified child that we’re trying to kill. And so of course you know it gets stronger and stronger and stronger and and um to see the enemy as a child as we sit in self inquiry.
(38:10) It’s a respectful thing to move your the that ego mind that ego thinking from your head to paper and then you know it’s like love making literally to look at the ego and it’s it’s like seeing it is not trying to kill it but sweetheart is it true you know cuz the ego is not I and and so eventually that that lost child I mean ego is a state of mind it’s bodyless And it’s always trying to keep the the I I am this body, this personality alive, but to to uh when it understands you’re not trying to kill it.
(38:53) It finds a home in your heart. And that is the end of duality. It’s where the mind and the heart are one. Heart meaning humanity. Humanity. Humane. Humanity. I wonder uh from your perspective having witnessed so many move through this sort of you know the the light bulb moment. I particularly am a fan of the turnarounds that we were you know sort of touching on because you know it just it just cuts right to the heart of the possibility that it’s the literal inverse that the truth is the literal inverse. It’s a shift in in uh
(39:37) perspective. Yes. Which is which is probably the defining feature of our human experience. It’s perspective, right? And so when you’re looking at how to apply this in real life with real relationships as a way of being in the world, how often do you see that there is like this still this separation between the mental psychological realm and the emotional embodiment realm such that the addiction like literal addiction physiologic addiction to the drama triangle um takes over again, right? Because I uh I don’t know if you
(40:18) know the phrase from theater called the fourth wall, like breaking the fourth wall, but I sometimes think about when we when we get this real, that the acting uh potential, the the roles that we’re playing, the game of you be the villain, I’ll be the victor, or sometimes vice versa. Right? I’ve I’ve spent many a moment as the villain in my in my life and enjoyed it.
(40:43) Right? So, but those roles fall away when you can humble yourself in this way. You can become this vulnerable. You can become this interested in the truth. As you as you say, it’s almost like the whole theatrical performance of this life dissolves and it’s less compelling maybe on some level. It’s less exciting. It’s less dramatic.
(41:05) There’s less of that familiar, you know, um, heroes arc. And so I wonder how addicted we are to that play and how often you see people kind of swinging back into the familiar shoes of their dramatic roles. Well, I I think that it’s it is so compelling. You know, it’s ego-driven and uh no ego no world, you know, and I am as I believe myself to be and and that you know it’s the ego’s world.
(41:36) But you just said something that I just found so fascinating I wanted to respond to. There’s there’s nothing more exciting than truth and the ego would not would make sure that we don’t understand that. So the ego doesn’t sleep, you know, it’s it when we’re asleep at night and we’re not dreaming, you know, and we wake up and the first thing is I I I am I’m awake. I’m late for work. I want coffee.
(42:07) I’m, you know, the kids are late for school. And I I I I And were we okay at night not dreaming with the ego without ego? We’re fine. And it is you you could um just ponder it like a death. And people fear death. They fear nothing. The ego is all. But when the ego matches the heart, there is a cohabitation there that that the drama as the ego would have it be cannot compete with that kind of excitement and curiosity and the power of love.
(42:53) you know, to coin that to to quote that coin phrase, it’s it’s an it’s rarely it’s a it’s a road less traveled and but no one no one in my experience is more enlightened than another. We’re all equal in that. But the ego, you know, this is I refer to this world as Earth school. The ego is a state of mind and we’re asleep to it and until we wake up to it, you know, it’s it looks like a lot of pain in this world.
(43:29) You know, this this this world has a reputation of, you know, a world of suffering and and it’s it it we can flip that and self inquiry can give us that. But it is a practice. It’s a practice and stillness and and um takes a very open mind. But no one has to do it. So you know in in earth we do we do have that option.
(43:53) And I think right one of the the sort of meta layers of this is once you start to see from this perspective that there isn’t such a thing as a better person than another person. Once you see from the perspective that uh nobody else is responsible for my experience and all of the layers that unfold when you ask these questions like a loophole maybe is that then you start to look at people who are not asking these questions and feel superior to them. Right. Oh, no.
(44:29) It’s um you you sit in self inquire for a while. You understand why people would not sit in selfquir there’s such a shift in it. I mean, it’s there’s it’s such a a shift in it. It’s like uh how can how can a a kind of stillness and happiness that’s not exciting, you know? It’s just this this stillness and this have compete with that kind of aliveness and passion and everything.
(45:02) It’s it’s it’s why people it’s difficult to just sit in and develop a practice of stillness and self inquiry. So I just wouldn’t expect anyone to do it. I marvel at people who uh who u who do take it on because it’s it’s it’s nothing I would expect. But it’s it’s something I certainly here to pass on as an option.
(45:28) Yes, it’s a gentle offer. But the world lives in me. It’s as I understand it to be. So, well, but I do uh cut my own throat. And you know I believe in in in freedom and the absence of suffering as an as a given as a given but on how can we claim that when the ego is in control? It wouldn’t be honest to even claim it.
(45:51) It would be guessing. In summary, would you say that you know based on your experience and the extraordinary path that you’ve walked that you have a perspective on incarnation, why we’re here, what the nature of spirituality is? I know that I mean you you you strike me as one of the more humble folks out there wielding one of the more powerful offerings that exists.
(46:21) And I never really hear you talk about, you know, awakening the path to enlightenment. This is how you, you know, ascend. I saw on the floor one day, you know, I believed myself in and I didn’t do it on purpose. As I lay on the floor, you know, I I woke up on the floor. I was sleeping on the floor. My self-esteem was so low, I didn’t believe I even deserved a bed to sleep in.
(46:45) so asleep on the floor and I opened my eyes for no reason. It’s it’s like it opened its eyes and then I saw the light coming through a window and and I couldn’t see it without a name. It took that. So that was that is creation. So I light, window, ceiling, floor, it I mean it was all there. The ego just was it’s like I was born into it and and that’s where this self-incquiry offer it was born there and anyone with an open mind can do it.
(47:33) It’s not something I would expect anyone to do. But if the pain, if the pain is just unbearable for those of us that are just curious or the pain is just too much, then you know, then I say judge your neighbor, write it down, ask for questions and turn it around or not and just try it on as a way. It’s medicine.
(47:57) And you were speaking of medicine earlier and and as we become free from the cause of suffering, which is what we’re thinking and believing in any given moment about the world and the people in it and ourselves. It’s we question our thoughts on our physical health shifts. It’s medicine. And to do that with what you were speaking of and those the things we consider wise that work in our experience and self inquiry they work together.
(48:36) It’s radical. It’s it’s it’s a radical shift to sit in self inquiry and the choices we make become uh become not something we have to do. It’s something we’re um compelled in a most loving way to do. It’s just the right thing to do and there’s no idea that would stop us. And it’s as simple as take out the trash, you know, pack the children’s lunch and and have a good life.
(49:07) So, it sounds like, you know, in your experience, I can only imagine what your average Wednesday looks like. I imagine you like frolicking in a field of daisies or something. I don’t know what goes on, but I imagine that the concept of problems and the currency of complaint fall away, right? Maybe not immediately, but they they start to fall away.
(49:29) They do because there’s nothing to argue with with right action. Like maybe walking through the kitchen and there’s a a cup maybe Steven left on the counter. And I don’t think, oh, he should have, could have, would. It’s just right to be at peace, you know, it’s just chop wood, carry water, and there’s there’s, you know, I just I pick it up, I rinse it, wash it, put it in the sink, you know, it’s in the in the drainer, and and go on with my day.
(50:00) And it’s it’s a like a walk in the park. It’s like a walk through the kitchen. And it’s it’s it’s you just do the right thing because there’s nothing inside that would argue with it and say it’s not fair. It’s not right. Why did he do it? It’s gone. It’s just chop wood, carry water, as the Buddhists would say. I think that’s a Buddhist theme. Yes.
(50:24) I actually use that same phrase often because it’s orienting, right, to what’s actually in front of you versus in the imaginal realm of the past and and the future. I wonder if there is anything that you want to share that again having walked the path that you’ve walked is alive for you these days and alive for you now and that um feels exciting or is it just moment by moment for you? Oh the the unknown and we live in the unknown.
(50:55) It’s just the ego that thinks it knows. So that open mind just open you know this curious childlike mind that it’s really a maturity but to that that don’t know world when you understand the nature of everything that it is good without opposite beyond theory you know and self inquiry gives us that that um that living proof that other people aren’t offering up.
(51:28) It’s just in ourselves where it shows up to understand that it’s it’s maybe what people would refer to as non-duality. There’s um there’s only beauty and the ego that would argue with that and its attempt to survive as as I I physical ambrand of uncertainty. It’s a beautiful I love this. I um I’ve spent quite some time, not as long as you have, but quite some time studying what it feels like to be around somebody who is in possession of themselves, who seems to have transformed their victim consciousness to something else, right? Some other
(52:15) maturational uh destination. And I’ve come to see relaxation as one of the most um meaningful indicators that that transition h is either underway or has occurred. And you know, you you strike me as an extraordinarily relaxed woman. Yeah. See, it’s a good lie. Yes. And and it’s probably because as you depicted with the, you know, the cup on the counter, you care so much about your experience and your energy that you’re not going to capitulate to the habit of discharging it in these conflicts and tensions and these old habits of uh of
(52:59) warfare really. And I love that you use that. What happens is ceases to be of interest. It’s it’s more like that cup on the counter. It’s not fair that I should have to pick it up. So the absence of that is just picking up the cup. Not because I have to, but it’s, you know, in the language we’d say it’s the right thing to do.
(53:24) I’m the one with the problem. I’m the one that thinks it belongs clean and in the in the cupboard. And and so it’s selfserving all the time, which is the ego’s point of view. But as it turns out, it is I want what’s right and I’m not wanting that on purpose. It’s just it’s easy. You know, e easy meaning the absence of war. And and it’s the opposite of stupid.
(53:57) It’s it’s healthy. it turns out to be user friendly and I love it. Well, you you have um so generously made available and offered the work for so many years and you know we’ll make sure that for the odd person who hasn’t accessed it or worked with it uh that that they know exactly where to find you and I am just so delighted that you walk this earth.
(54:28) I’m inspired by your humility and again that relaxation that I feel, you know, coming off of you energetically. It really feels like a template to me and uh like a northstar. So, I’m so grateful to you. Thank you for this conversation. Thank you. You are a power source and thank you for all that you give and a gift and gosh, I’ve enjoyed our time together. Thank you.
(54:55) [Music] I feel [Music] like I feel [Music]
